Principles

[Vector]

I have been thinking somewhat about the rules of the society and some of them I don't fully understand the reasoning for.

But I'm not going to worry about the specifics right now, because I think there is an underlying cause that needs to be addressed first, which is clearly documenting and agreeing to written principles.

In my mind it's a question of assumptions and consequences. There is no real point to arguing about consequences if people have different assumptions. Agreement can never be reached. If people agree on the assumptions, then they only need to decide how to best execute.

What I'm thinking is having principles that are complete enough that any rule or guideline could be traced back to a documented principle to answer the question of "why?" For example, dallaspua could raise money through a variety of means and occasionally pay small stipends to gurus who give talks. Why not? (I'm making this up as I go along, I don't actually know what's wrong with it.) Perhaps dallaspua should minimize transactions involving money because becoming money-oriented runs a risk of corrupting our unbiased stance? I don't know.

Now, even if I personally disagree with a principle, I can accept that it is a part of the philosophy of dallaspua. But if a rule or regulation is motivated by a principle that is unwritten and not explicitly agreed upon, then I will never be happy with the rule because I won't understand the why.

I have some ideas for starting points that I think we can all agree on, but I am too tired at the moment to articulate them. One of the more challenging ones is going to be deciding, when is money good and when is money bad?

[El Fenix]

I think it was Sartre who said that "without an infinite reference point, all other points are meaningless" The point being that unless we have some sort of infinite, and absolute reference point for our principles(and thus actions), then pragmatism rules the day.

Also, in the business book, Built to Last, theres the principle os "preserve the core AND stimulate progress." What is the core for this board? The things we would rather shut down the board rather than do? The things we will never give up, the things we stand on? Versus the things that can change with the times? To make that distinction is important.
This happens a lot in business, and the church. It may happen that older people in the church may think that part of the core values of a church is a certain music style. This is not the case at all, but is a style that changes with the times.


I have no problem with the board wanting to bring in Mystery (for example) and paying his expenses. Many of the top speakers in any field command a speaking fee, or an appearance fee. This isint just the PUA community that deals with this. If we want to bring someone in to speak, its tough to ask that they appear for free, cover their own expenses, and cant sell, or barely advertise their product. Especially if they have any sort of decent reputation at all. No one else, the church also, does this, and I cant think of why we should either.

The question begs itself, if we are non-profit, then how do we raise money to do such a thing? I think the raffle Idea we had to win a seat at a seminar was brilliant. I dont know how the finances end of it worked out, but I'm assuming we did make money. This could be a good strategy moving forward. There are a lot of ways to make money, we as a group, just need to be creative, and make it happen.


Money itself is neither good nor bad. Its what we do with it that makes it so. Money is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. There just needs to be a way on this board to keep it being used for good purposes, and free of corruption.

[El Fenix]

The church, despite some televangelists, is largely a great model for non-profit organizations. All churches I can think of are non-profit entities. However, if you saw income statements and balance sheets from large churches, youd be quite suprized at how much money flows through.

Churches have paid staff, and volunteers that work for them. They are supported, in this country, by the giving of their members. This is can also include special fundraisers. Some of they pay association fees to be associated with a larger body of churches.

If the church wants to put on an event, such as a concert, or special event, they take money out of the church's account in order to pay for it. Obviously, there will be some 1 on 1 negotiation over costs, fees and such. Rarely will a performer appear for free, even for a church. At a minimum, their costs will be covered by the host. A church will sell tickets to the event, not to make money, but to cover costs, and they make that known. This is also true for a temple in Judiaism. I once went with a few Jewish friends to a special service, and they sold tickets in order to raise money.
There is also whats called an "honorarium," which is a speaking fee. I know several people who havent had a normal job for quite some time, and make their living by speaking at churches!

I understand the wanting by our board to keep free and clear or conflicts of interist. This is necessary for the reputation and health for the board. I just dont think we have considered all the options yet. More discussion is needed.

[Finesse]

The only problem I can see with comparing the board or ANY non-profit entity to a church, is that churches have built in "revenue generators" called tithing.

Non-profit organizations run completely off of volunteers, donations, and support from outside as well as inside. The problem with this though is this is more like an "underground society" so outside support is virtually nil. Leaving just 2 different sourses for support unless we decide to do some full scale promotion and become completely public.

We have volunteering, and internal financial support, in the form of donations, that supports this forum. So unless we are willing to change something, and decide on what we should change, I think this could be described more as an employee owned business.

I agree with Vector though. We do need a foundation that doesn't waiver.

[Vector]

I think it's important to maintain the trust and goodwill of the users, and to provide an environment that is not excessive with advertisements. I am getting more and more annoyed with MySpace these days because their blinky flashy ads are distracting, and I get spam messages and friend invitations. So far dallaspua has been the opposite, there are no ads and no spam messages.

The trust and goodwill can be lost pretty easily if leaders were to accept kickbacks, so that is a really important policy. Kickbacks completely change the incentives for the organizers and start to make them agents of the advertiser. It can be ameliorated somewhat with a disclosure, but it's better not to accept it at all.

Another thing I think with regard to money is that members should not have to pay for anything they don't benefit from. So for example there should not be a membership fee, the proceeds of which are used to pay for an event that not everyone can attend. If an event costs money to hold, then attendees and only attendees should cover the costs. I see this as a goal, not an absolute requirement. I can see situations where the costs or the number of attendees is not certain in advance, and a surplus or shortfall is covered by the dallaspua treasury, with the hope that it will average out over time. Depending on the other sources of income, the events may all operate at a loss.

If freebies are given out by a guru as part of their standard procedure, it is fine for dallaspua as an organization to accept them, just not for the executives to accept them personally. If they are a sort of freebie that has to be used by a person (like a VIP pass) then perhaps it should be auctioned to the members, and then the proceeds can help cover an event or some other function for the members.

I think it's important to permit people (including members of the leadership) to have opinions about different styles of game, or be fans of different gurus, but dallaspua as an organization should be neutral. I think that to support this, it may be good for moderators or known leaders to mention that they speak for themselves and not on behalf of dallaspua. But so far this hasn't been an issue.

[Vector]

I think the comparison to a church is not because we're anything like a church, but the point is that even a non-profit can have a lot of money flow through it.

We have volunteering, and internal financial support, in the form of donations, that supports this forum. So unless we are willing to change something, and decide on what we should change, I think this could be described more as an employee owned business.

Hm, the way I think of it is pretty different. I think there are two streams of revenue which should be avoided on principle:
1. membership fees
2. profits from admission fees to events

Anything else is fair game. Donations from members, low-key advertisements (e.g. google adsense, but i'm not sure how much money it would generate, and if it's worth it), kickbacks that go to the treasury instead of to the lair leaders, potential affiliate programs with amazon (as long as the user doesn't get charged a higher price as a result), raffles or other fund-raisers (barbecue or whatever), selling CDs or DVDs containing content we produce (priced only a little above production costs).

I'm not quite sure what all we would spend the money on if we had it. The normal operations don't require much cash, so we'll probably not need much fundraising at all.

[El Fenix]

I'd love for us all to go over the financials of the board with Mojo next time we meet. So far the 3 of us have been discussing in ideas, and principles, what we dont have exact facts on. I'd like to see an income statement for the board, so we have an idea of where things are at.

Also, the built in "tithing" base of churches is in reality appalling. Very few people give. The giving is more like 4% of income overall, for those who go to churches. I have been, and am involved at many levels with churches, which is something almost no one on this board can claim. I do maintain that it may not be an exact fit, but many of the comparisons do hold water.

It seems like there is a large concern towards the corruption of those running the board, in taking kickbacks, and the board becomg too flashy, and ad overwhelmed. I argee with these concerns. Revenue and benefits(free stuff) should be for all the members, and for the board in general. I agree that we should not have a board aristocracy where a few get most of the benefit. Thats self defeating in many ways.

Dallas PUA should be a neutral ground for differing styles, and members as much as possible. We should avoid being a CNN, and be more like the BBC, if we were a news agency.

I do disargee though with the not charging of admission for certain events. For things like special events, or bringing in a high profile guest speaker, it would be feasable. This would NOT apply to normal events, like our Friday night sarging events, or the like.
I am against membership fees also.

[Vector]

I do disargee though with the not charging of admission for certain events...

I didn't say not charging admission, I said not profiting. We should attempt to have revenue match expenses, so the event pays for itself, and is cash neutral to dallaspua. I worry that if dallaspua is making large gains (like 50% "markup") that it will hurt goodwill with our users. If some events are subsidizing other events, or other activities, then "fairness" needs to be actively measured and managed and worried about. If events are cash neutral, then fairness basically takes care of itself.

But I'm flexible on this. If dallaspua gains financially from an event, at a minimum it should be disclosed and perhaps billed as a fundraiser.

[Rhody]

Having a treasury and the ability to accumulate funds here and there could be a benefit or a curse. For example, if cash flow began to build, then the community could get something like a luxury box at the AAC, which would be a good thing for meetings, day2s for members, prizes, etc. However, the community would then be saddled with the responsibility of apportioning access fairly. That would be true for any asset purchased with treasury funds, whether it be seats at a workshop, a luxury box at the AAC, or a case of beer.

If those funds do not come from the members (membership dues, admission, etc.), then the community could provide access and if a member doesn't take part, it's his loss. However, if the funds come from donations, membership dues, or admission charges, then a problem may arise if one member thinks he's not getting as much out as he puts in.

So I agree that it may be best to steer clear of all that. It may be acceptable to charge admission, as long as admission only covers costs. Any excess must be applied to resources that benefit all members, such as more bandwidth for the Web site, facilities for meetings, audio/visual equipment for seminars, etc.

[Mojo]

I like this discussion.

The constitution and laws were originally put in place as a structure in order for this organization to initially operate. I knew that there would be change as people thought of and acted upon good ideas. As I read through this thread, I like the idea of having all of what this is be traced back to certain pronciples. Of course, the main reason of this board is to help men improve their social intelligence and to guide them in using this knowledge in a constructive, postive manner.

As for finances, maybe it would be a good idea to generate income if it will allow us to provide better services for the guys in this community. I know one of my hopes was to have a huge charity event (battered women was my suggestion), raise and donate the money. Though to do this, a non-for-profit would have to be registered with the state, "seperate" from Dallas PUA Society. To maintin secrecy, maybe it would be a good idea never to register Dallas PUA Society with the state.

I am not against a small nominal fee for fashion consultants, improv instructors, etc. As for PU gurus, they should not expect us to pay for their lodging, plane ticket, or any of their business expenses. Their access to a very valuable target market of 700+ members is more than enough compensation. It is important that we leverage what we have here to provide such benefits as free workshop seats, free talks, free products, etc, for the guys. We have more leverage than many think.