How to get what you want from a woman:
1. Establish authority over her
2. Make your expectations of her clear (through anecdotes, stories, or philosophical conversations about WHAT a relationship should be like, etc.)
3. Inflect pain on her when she does not comply with your demands (do not give her attention, validation, affection, etc.), conversely reward her when she does comply with your demands (give her attention, affection, etc.)
Basically, you're using your authority, as a man, to lead and direct her to act in a manner that you require from her. In return, you must fulfill her needs and wants (i.e. protection, direction, provider, love, affection, etc.) as well as set her straight when she doesn't act in an appropriate manner. Pleasure and pain. Positive and negative stimuli are required.
Manipulation does not have to be part of the equation.
When you start fucking with her head, on purpose, as with my 'door' example then I think you cross a line from being a man that is leading and directing a relationship to being passive aggressive trying to sneak around and be clever without making your intentions clear. Women and children manipulate (on purpose) because they lack the ability to command authority over men.
But, like I said, a lot of PU is about manipulation. And, frankly, I think this is one of the various reasons why guys that have been doing this a while wish they never found out about the Community. I find myself saying and doing shit that I know is a direct result from PU AND I know is nothing more than me trying to get what I want from someone without first commanding respect from them and not having any authority over them. I'd rather not get what I want while being more up front than get what I want by nipping around on the edges through frames and manipulation.
Dallas PUA
The Pickup Artist Playground
Mandatory Social Responses
40 posts
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by Guest » Thu May 05, 2011 4:39 pm
[QUOTE]Is it manipulation if it's enforcing what you want out of a mate? [/QUOTE]ma·nip·u·late
verb \mə-ˈni-pyə-ˌlāt\
ma·nip·u·lat·edma·nip·u·lat·ing
Definition of MANIPULATE
transitive verb
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2: A: to manage or utilize skillfully B: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose
I think that falls under 2B or 3.
verb \mə-ˈni-pyə-ˌlāt\
ma·nip·u·lat·edma·nip·u·lat·ing
Definition of MANIPULATE
transitive verb
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2: A: to manage or utilize skillfully B: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose
I think that falls under 2B or 3.
- Guest
by Guest » Fri May 06, 2011 12:24 am
This is the kind of stuff that my brain loves!
For the record, I find it exhausting and impossible to be constantly aware of every single frame game that I encounter. Plus I'm still a little afc and this can impact whether I'm reacting logically or emotionally charged. I feel traveling on a path that is from the heart and with happyness in mind reduces stress and alot of lifes dealings are easier to overcome. But in order to follow a path from the heart (and getting what will benifit him), a man must already have a solid foundation (this could take years, or never actual be obtained). However I feel that there are deffinitely key specific points where a man must absolutely incorporate a specific frame in order to lead and set the tone.
Everything everyone does, when dealing with people, involves having a frame of some type, dont you think? Whether consciously or subconsciously it occurs. We often, fall into others frames without realizing it.
It could be said that there are layers upon layers of frames that make up a relationship. Each little frame game could be seen as a brush stroke of a bigger picture. The bigger picture being where the relationship is in its current state. Frames are useful for projecting what is expected for the future. So, a relationship could possibly be viewed as one whole thing, comprised of many layers of frames and controlled by the outcome all of the frames put together. I submit that if this were incorrect, every new day would be erased and the entire process would have to be repeated from square one: establishing dominance. It is a way of getting what you want in an intellectual fashion. We know the goal of a pua is the getting the subject to fall into our frame. We know this is also a common concept utilized in sales. The alternative method would be to take what you want without it being offered to you (ex. robbing someone of a dollar instead of convincing them to give it to you). In the alternative method you do not win, you lose. You get what you want but you do it without regard or respect. You loose due to only being concerned with self. Self kingdom is lonely kingdom.
When seeking something you want from someone, what is important is how you leave them when the interaction is finished. You want to leave people better than when you met them right? Would it be considered manipulation if you left someone better off? Is a women better off when a man has established dominance? Open for interpretation I suppose. When strong minded men desire something, they seek that desire with logical intent (something that is intended, an aim or a purpose.) Intent is what drives the motivation to achieve a goal. In order to acquire whatever it is that a man wants he must conjur up some type of plan. If he wants to establish dominance, he must have a plan of some sort in order to establish dominance. I think to define a frame as manipulation would lie heavily on what the specific intent was and how the user goes about framing.
Is it manipulating? Depends on how one defines their intent. I view frame control as manipulation. And I think people are generally manipulating each other all the time for thier own self fullfillment. Whether you want someone to think you are funny or you want sex, its indifferent in my eyes. I dont see manipulation as a bad thing. Just as an artist will manipulate a piece of clay to resemble a recoginizeable object.
It could be argued that women want us to manipulate them in order to convince themselves that we can be apart of their reality when in reality we are trying to make them apart of our reality. They need the frames to know what to do and we need the frames to get what we want and/or project what we believe in order to hopefully align with them.
For the record, I find it exhausting and impossible to be constantly aware of every single frame game that I encounter. Plus I'm still a little afc and this can impact whether I'm reacting logically or emotionally charged. I feel traveling on a path that is from the heart and with happyness in mind reduces stress and alot of lifes dealings are easier to overcome. But in order to follow a path from the heart (and getting what will benifit him), a man must already have a solid foundation (this could take years, or never actual be obtained). However I feel that there are deffinitely key specific points where a man must absolutely incorporate a specific frame in order to lead and set the tone.
Everything everyone does, when dealing with people, involves having a frame of some type, dont you think? Whether consciously or subconsciously it occurs. We often, fall into others frames without realizing it.
It could be said that there are layers upon layers of frames that make up a relationship. Each little frame game could be seen as a brush stroke of a bigger picture. The bigger picture being where the relationship is in its current state. Frames are useful for projecting what is expected for the future. So, a relationship could possibly be viewed as one whole thing, comprised of many layers of frames and controlled by the outcome all of the frames put together. I submit that if this were incorrect, every new day would be erased and the entire process would have to be repeated from square one: establishing dominance. It is a way of getting what you want in an intellectual fashion. We know the goal of a pua is the getting the subject to fall into our frame. We know this is also a common concept utilized in sales. The alternative method would be to take what you want without it being offered to you (ex. robbing someone of a dollar instead of convincing them to give it to you). In the alternative method you do not win, you lose. You get what you want but you do it without regard or respect. You loose due to only being concerned with self. Self kingdom is lonely kingdom.
When seeking something you want from someone, what is important is how you leave them when the interaction is finished. You want to leave people better than when you met them right? Would it be considered manipulation if you left someone better off? Is a women better off when a man has established dominance? Open for interpretation I suppose. When strong minded men desire something, they seek that desire with logical intent (something that is intended, an aim or a purpose.) Intent is what drives the motivation to achieve a goal. In order to acquire whatever it is that a man wants he must conjur up some type of plan. If he wants to establish dominance, he must have a plan of some sort in order to establish dominance. I think to define a frame as manipulation would lie heavily on what the specific intent was and how the user goes about framing.
Is it manipulating? Depends on how one defines their intent. I view frame control as manipulation. And I think people are generally manipulating each other all the time for thier own self fullfillment. Whether you want someone to think you are funny or you want sex, its indifferent in my eyes. I dont see manipulation as a bad thing. Just as an artist will manipulate a piece of clay to resemble a recoginizeable object.
It could be argued that women want us to manipulate them in order to convince themselves that we can be apart of their reality when in reality we are trying to make them apart of our reality. They need the frames to know what to do and we need the frames to get what we want and/or project what we believe in order to hopefully align with them.
- Guest
by Guest » Fri May 06, 2011 10:17 am
[QUOTE=traxxus;41082]ma·nip·u·late
verb \mə-ˈni-pyə-ˌlāt\
ma·nip·u·lat·edma·nip·u·lat·ing
Definition of MANIPULATE
transitive verb
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2: A: to manage or utilize skillfully B: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose
I think that falls under 2B or 3.[/QUOTE]
Is it changing if I don't care whether or not she decides to do what I am projecting? If she does, great. If she doesn't, great, I just won't be with her.
verb \mə-ˈni-pyə-ˌlāt\
ma·nip·u·lat·edma·nip·u·lat·ing
Definition of MANIPULATE
transitive verb
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2: A: to manage or utilize skillfully B: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose
I think that falls under 2B or 3.[/QUOTE]
Is it changing if I don't care whether or not she decides to do what I am projecting? If she does, great. If she doesn't, great, I just won't be with her.
- Guest
by Guest » Fri May 06, 2011 10:55 am
[QUOTE=Finesse;41084]Is it changing if I don't care whether or not she decides to do what I am projecting? If she does, great. If she doesn't, great, I just won't be with her.[/QUOTE]
Finesse,
We're friends but you've got to stop this shit man. You never state your opinion, instead you ask bullshit questions that inherently lead people to answer the way in which you want. When, they don't, THEN you state your case. This is not how a man acts.
Man: I belive this and that
Everyone else: Okay
Man: Comply
Everyone else: Okay
Man: I'm happy
Everyone else: Great
But you twist it too much:
Finesse: How does this make you feel?
Everyone else: Give me some direction
Finesse: Why do you need direction?
Everyone else: I'm unsure of your leadership abilities...
Finesse: I can lead you because I'm good and all I do is good
Everyone else: What?
Not being a dick..Make your intentions clear and stop trying to work in the gray areas of life...
Finesse,
We're friends but you've got to stop this shit man. You never state your opinion, instead you ask bullshit questions that inherently lead people to answer the way in which you want. When, they don't, THEN you state your case. This is not how a man acts.
Man: I belive this and that
Everyone else: Okay
Man: Comply
Everyone else: Okay
Man: I'm happy
Everyone else: Great
But you twist it too much:
Finesse: How does this make you feel?
Everyone else: Give me some direction
Finesse: Why do you need direction?
Everyone else: I'm unsure of your leadership abilities...
Finesse: I can lead you because I'm good and all I do is good
Everyone else: What?
Not being a dick..Make your intentions clear and stop trying to work in the gray areas of life...
- Guest
by Guest » Fri May 06, 2011 1:47 pm
[QUOTE]Is it changing if I don't care whether or not she decides to do what I am projecting? If she does, great. If she doesn't, great, I just won't be with her. [/QUOTE]
Does a falling tree make a sound if no one is around to hear it? Is it still manipulation if she is unaffected by it? Same/Same
Does a falling tree make a sound if no one is around to hear it? Is it still manipulation if she is unaffected by it? Same/Same
- Guest
by Guest » Fri May 06, 2011 3:00 pm
Joking aside, I think all of you are wrong.
If you're going around actively trying to punish/reward or set frames of expectation or anything like that - you're being FAKE. You're also caring too much about what other people do in reaction to you.
Whether a woman "complies" with you shouldn't cross your mind IMO.
The only way to roll is to be yourself. In other words...
1. I have my core beliefs and values.
2. Those core beliefs interact with the world and form an emotion.
3. I act on that emotion.
4. You're either on board or you aren't. I don't compromise my core values for anyone, ever.
So for example...
1. I believe deep down that I'm entitled to a hot meal when I come home from work from the wife.
2. Wife hasn't cooked the meal. Realizing that conlict with my core belief, I am angry.
3. I yell at wife to cook the damn meal.
4. I'm not apologetic for my actions. My core beliefs are solid. This causes wife to become more attracted to me as a man.
That's how it all works.
If you're going around actively trying to punish/reward or set frames of expectation or anything like that - you're being FAKE. You're also caring too much about what other people do in reaction to you.
Whether a woman "complies" with you shouldn't cross your mind IMO.
The only way to roll is to be yourself. In other words...
1. I have my core beliefs and values.
2. Those core beliefs interact with the world and form an emotion.
3. I act on that emotion.
4. You're either on board or you aren't. I don't compromise my core values for anyone, ever.
So for example...
1. I believe deep down that I'm entitled to a hot meal when I come home from work from the wife.
2. Wife hasn't cooked the meal. Realizing that conlict with my core belief, I am angry.
3. I yell at wife to cook the damn meal.
4. I'm not apologetic for my actions. My core beliefs are solid. This causes wife to become more attracted to me as a man.
That's how it all works.
- Guest
by Guest » Fri May 06, 2011 3:20 pm
[QUOTE=grimm1111;41088]Joking aside, I think all of you are wrong.
If you're going around actively trying to punish/reward or set frames of expectation or anything like that - you're being FAKE. You're also caring too much about what other people do in reaction to you.
Whether a woman "complies" with you shouldn't cross your mind IMO.
The only way to roll is to be yourself. In other words...
1. I have my core beliefs and values.
2. Those core beliefs interact with the world and form an emotion.
3. I act on that emotion.
4. You're either on board or you aren't. I don't compromise my core values for anyone, ever.
So for example...
1. I believe deep down that I'm entitled to a hot meal when I come home from work from the wife.
2. Wife hasn't cooked the meal. Realizing that conlict with my core belief, I am angry.
3. I yell at wife to cook the damn meal.
4. I'm not apologetic for my actions. My core beliefs are solid. This causes wife to become more attracted to me as a man.
That's how it all works.[/QUOTE]
Dude you just described EXACTLY what I was talking about.
[COLOR=red]1. I believe deep down that I'm entitled to a hot meal when I come home from work from the wife.[/COLOR]
Your expectation, which you have no doubt made clear to her at some point. Otherwise how could you ever expect her to fulfill said expectation?
[COLOR=red]2. Wife hasn't cooked the meal. Realizing that conlict with my core belief, I am angry.[/COLOR]
Non-compliance. Again, if she DIDN'T cook the meal then you must have told her your expecation to have the meal cooked otherwise you have no authority to be angry.
[COLOR=red]3. I yell at wife to cook the damn meal.[/COLOR]
PUNISHMENT. Duh...
[COLOR=red]4. I'm not apologetic for my actions. My core beliefs are solid. This causes wife to become more attracted to me as a man.[/COLOR]
You're not apologetic because you know that your authority should not ever be questioned. You're the man, you want what you want, and you deserve to get exactly that assuming you lead, provide, protect, and provide her with her needs as well (I would say wants but that's not the same as a need). By acting like the man, you build attraction because you are being exactly what a woman wants: a MAN.
Seriously man, you basically said exactly what I was talking about but in a different way.
AND, the most dangerous advice you can ever give is to say "just be yourself." That's horrible advice because pretty much all men are socially dysfunctional, especially in the Community. If we weren't socially dysfunctional and didn't know how to treat other people the way a man should treat them then we wouldn't be in the Community.
Leave that "just be yourself" advice at home man. Fact is that "yourself" is fucking broken...be someone else.
If you're going around actively trying to punish/reward or set frames of expectation or anything like that - you're being FAKE. You're also caring too much about what other people do in reaction to you.
Whether a woman "complies" with you shouldn't cross your mind IMO.
The only way to roll is to be yourself. In other words...
1. I have my core beliefs and values.
2. Those core beliefs interact with the world and form an emotion.
3. I act on that emotion.
4. You're either on board or you aren't. I don't compromise my core values for anyone, ever.
So for example...
1. I believe deep down that I'm entitled to a hot meal when I come home from work from the wife.
2. Wife hasn't cooked the meal. Realizing that conlict with my core belief, I am angry.
3. I yell at wife to cook the damn meal.
4. I'm not apologetic for my actions. My core beliefs are solid. This causes wife to become more attracted to me as a man.
That's how it all works.[/QUOTE]
Dude you just described EXACTLY what I was talking about.
[COLOR=red]1. I believe deep down that I'm entitled to a hot meal when I come home from work from the wife.[/COLOR]
Your expectation, which you have no doubt made clear to her at some point. Otherwise how could you ever expect her to fulfill said expectation?
[COLOR=red]2. Wife hasn't cooked the meal. Realizing that conlict with my core belief, I am angry.[/COLOR]
Non-compliance. Again, if she DIDN'T cook the meal then you must have told her your expecation to have the meal cooked otherwise you have no authority to be angry.
[COLOR=red]3. I yell at wife to cook the damn meal.[/COLOR]
PUNISHMENT. Duh...
[COLOR=red]4. I'm not apologetic for my actions. My core beliefs are solid. This causes wife to become more attracted to me as a man.[/COLOR]
You're not apologetic because you know that your authority should not ever be questioned. You're the man, you want what you want, and you deserve to get exactly that assuming you lead, provide, protect, and provide her with her needs as well (I would say wants but that's not the same as a need). By acting like the man, you build attraction because you are being exactly what a woman wants: a MAN.
Seriously man, you basically said exactly what I was talking about but in a different way.
AND, the most dangerous advice you can ever give is to say "just be yourself." That's horrible advice because pretty much all men are socially dysfunctional, especially in the Community. If we weren't socially dysfunctional and didn't know how to treat other people the way a man should treat them then we wouldn't be in the Community.
Leave that "just be yourself" advice at home man. Fact is that "yourself" is fucking broken...be someone else.
- Guest
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