Mandatory Social Responses

[Guest]

[QUOTE=traxxus;41068]To overcome this, I guess I might do a future projection with heavy emphasis on sensuality or heavily romantic/sexual overtones. I also might use anticipated regret to paint a picture of loneliness/sadness at some point in the future and then provide a behavioral plan (ie. or you could kiss me now and avoid that lonely empty feeling in your bed tonight) that allowed her to avoid that regret, thereby inciting change. I never have tried the utilizing anticipated regret, but I imagine it could be a really powerful tool for frame setting and influence.[/QUOTE]


Man, you guys have devoted a lot of time to this. I've never been a fan of 'setting frames.' Instead, I'm more of a setting expectations kind of person. I use examples from my past or current life to communicate what I want and expect from a woman. So, if I expect for sex to be fun and crazy then I say something like:

"If you have a vibrant, strong sex life with someone. If you're with someone that you enjoy objectifying and vice versa, then when you hit rough patches in life or in the relationship you still have that to fall back on...it's a strong bond that can help your relationship from falling apart. When the sex dies, the relationship dies..."

You could argue the above is a frame but I see it more as me telling them what I want from them and giving them direction and permission to act that way. Essentially, I'm using my authority as the respected male to free her from the guilt, fear, and/or timidness to do what it is that I NEED for her to do so that I'M happy and fulfilled.

When I hear frame I think manipulation. When I hear setting expectations I think that as the authoriative male in the relationship I'm directing and leading her to act in a way that I require or want from her. I'm not manipulating her, I'm giving her a purpose.

Having said that, this is a mind fuck frame (I heard this from someone else so I'm not taking the credit):

You're lying in bed with your woman, holding her after you just gave her the roggering of a lifetime. You don't look at her, you look off in the distance at the door to leave the room. Then, you say:

Bull Run: "See that door. How would you feel if I got up right now and walked out that door to never return? No goodbye, no looking back. The last thing you see is my cute butt walking away. How would that make you feel?"
HB Random: "What? That would make me feel awful, truly awful. Don't go."
Bull Run: "I'm not but when I'm not happy and fulfilled in a relationship, that's what I do when I leave. I walk out the door, never to return..."

They're usually silent at this point. And, they usually bury themselves into your chest even more than they already have. They're basically experiencing the pain of you leaving. They're feeling it right then and there and they realize they DON'T like it one bit. This will build massive amounts of authority for you and compliance from her.

I see the first example as setting expectations and the second example as setting a frame. I could be wrong because I don't generally think of 'frames' and the like, instead I think of creating authority and demanding compliance. But, I see it as a frame because it's not necessarily a geniune thing. If it's true that when you're not happy you just walk out the door, then I think you could argue it's closer to setting an expectation (kind of). If it's not true then I think it's straight up manipulation, which is what I view a frame as. You're boxing someone into thinking or feeling something, you're forcing them to feel or react in a certain way. I know this happens everyday in life but I still think it's a socially dysfunctional method of dealing with people.

[Guest]

What's a frame? :p

[Guest]

Your using NLP BR. Plain and simple. There are two types of influence, broadly speaking, and assuming that most people want to comply with request.

1) Alpha Influence - This is sweetening the pot.

Imagine you go to buy a cell phone and the salesman says, If you buy this phone, we'll give you free text for a year. This is Alpha influence.

2) Omega Influence - This influence focus's on defusing the immediate NO! reaction that most people have (called reactance), and dealing with and overcoming projected regret over a decision.

The best and most immediate example of Omega Influence that I can think of is a Mr. Clean commercial. At the end of the commercial, you are always presented with a GLEAMING WHITE kitchen and the product. This makes someone imagine that they two will have a GLEAMING WHITE kitchen that will sparkle and shine if they use the product. Projecting a positive benefit into the future.


[QUOTE=Bull Run]"If you have a vibrant, strong sex life with someone. If you're with someone that you enjoy objectifying and vice versa, then when you hit rough patches in life or in the relationship you still have that to fall back on...it's a strong bond that can help your relationship from falling apart. When the sex dies, the relationship dies..."
[/QUOTE]

Imagine If... or in the above, just If.. is a classic Ross Jeffries "Weasel Phrase". Whatever you say after the IF is what she is imagining in her head. I imagine that the terms your emphasizing when you say this as "Vibrant, Stong, Sex","Rough Patches","Relationship", "Strong Bond".

Essentially, your making her imagine a future where she's having problems in a relationship, and your letting her imagine that at least there is still great sex in the relationship.

[QUOTE]Bull Run: "See that door. How would you feel if I got up right now and walked out that door to never return? No goodbye, no looking back. The last thing you see is my cute butt walking away. How would that make you feel?"
HB Random: "What? That would make me feel awful, truly awful. Don't go."
Bull Run: "I'm not but when I'm not happy and fulfilled in a relationship, that's what I do when I leave. I walk out the door, never to return..."[/QUOTE]

Same thing here, GREAT NLP. You are again projecting a future where she is going to suffer loss and trama. This is making her feel anticipated regret over losing you. This was what I was referring to in my last post that I have never used. However, with your example, I can see amazing power there.

[Guest]

I think finesse's first reply answers your question.

If you have a good prediction of what a persons response will be, you can lead the conversation a certain way.

Let's build on your example, but let's take into account some judgements you've made about her based on her appearance, location you met her (or if you know her), ethnicity, etc.

So to set the stage, let's assume you met her at a bookstore and she looks like the indie type. Also, let's say one of your DHV is that you're a musician, so you're trying to lead the conversation that way...

you: hi, how are you?
Her: good, how are you?

You: im exceptional. You know, It's funny, have you ever noticed that people always respond to "how are you?" with "good, how are you?"
her: um yea, they do...I never noticed that...

You: yea, I wouldve pegged you as a more creative person...Surely you couldve asked a more unique question (lighthearted / joking tone said with shit eating grin)...!

Now, there are several reponses she can make, and Based on those responses, you can cater your reply. I've outlined some general responses one might her in the field..

possible answer 1:
Her: whatever, I am a creative person!
You: really...(said with a tone that subcomminicates doubt)...How so?

Her: I write poetry.
You: splendid, I'm an artist myself. Artists unite! (high five)
Her: really? Like what?
You: oh, I play the guitar and write music in my spare time...

Possible answer 2:
Her: haha, I'm not creative at all..
You: hey, don't sell yourself short, everyone has a streak of creativity, even an accountant like myself...
Her: yea, like what?
You: I play the guitar and write music
Her: oh cool!

Possible answer 3:
her: (silence)
you: wow. Is it cold in here or is it just you?

Lol ok, jk about that last one. But seewhat I mean? These are all hypothetical but you get the idea...

[Guest]

[QUOTE=traxxus;41072]Your using NLP BR. Plain and simple. There are two types of influence, broadly speaking, and assuming that most people want to comply with request.

1) Alpha Influence - This is sweetening the pot.

Imagine you go to buy a cell phone and the salesman says, If you buy this phone, we'll give you free text for a year. This is Alpha influence.

2) Omega Influence - This influence focus's on defusing the immediate NO! reaction that most people have (called reactance), and dealing with and overcoming projected regret over a decision.

The best and most immediate example of Omega Influence that I can think of is a Mr. Clean commercial. At the end of the commercial, you are always presented with a GLEAMING WHITE kitchen and the product. This makes someone imagine that they two will have a GLEAMING WHITE kitchen that will sparkle and shine if they use the product. Projecting a positive benefit into the future.




Imagine If... or in the above, just If.. is a classic Ross Jeffries "Weasel Phrase". Whatever you say after the IF is what she is imagining in her head. I imagine that the terms your emphasizing when you say this as "Vibrant, Stong, Sex","Rough Patches","Relationship", "Strong Bond".

Essentially, your making her imagine a future where she's having problems in a relationship, and your letting her imagine that at least there is still great sex in the relationship.



Same thing here, GREAT NLP. You are again projecting a future where she is going to suffer loss and trama. This is making her feel anticipated regret over losing you. This was what I was referring to in my last post that I have never used. However, with your example, I can see amazing power there.[/QUOTE]



I suppose it's NLP. Call it that if you want. I just think NLP and setting frames are kind of sneaky and underhanded. When I lay it out there and say what I expect, without speaking specifically to HER and the relationship (she would feel I'm lecturing her), then I'm not being sneaky or underhanded. I'm simply telling it like it is...

Then again, I could just be naturally manipulative. Which, according, to pretty much any woman that has ever known me is true. They always say that I get them to do shit that other guys never did...sexual and otherwise.

Maybe I'm just a sociopath...wouldn't surprise me in the least...

[Guest]

@BR you said you feel NLP is a bit manipulative. I agree you can call it anything you like. I think the poster child for NLP in pickup (Ross Jeffries) made it seem that way because he was manipulative. NLP itself is a natural part of being human. That is my viewpoint.

Have you ever been exposed to advertising that made you feel compelled to act on it. I really don't know your specific interest outside of picking up women. I know you have posted that you want to become more involved in Art and Culture in the metroplex. Maybe you've seen an advertisement for a play or you saw some gizmo that you knew would make your life easier. Maybe it was when you were a child that you wanted a favorite toy for christmas that you had seen. How did you feel when you got that toy? Imagine that the toy is actually a woman for you to fuck, the most freaky, sexually deviant, perfect match for you. And, you had hours and hours of freaky fun with this woman. How would you feel?

Did you feel manipulated, or did you feel satisfied? The world of sales and marketing in the modern era revolved around the direction of thought toward a goal. Governments, Military's and Corporations all use these principles. Sometimes it is for bad purposes and sometimes for good.

A famous example is: "This is your brain..... This is your brain on drugs." That is a HUGE and powerful future projection that causes fear and causes massive anticipated regret.

My point is simply that this type of persuasion surrounds and permeates out society. NLP and it's use is no more than a tool, like a gun is a tool. It can be used for good or evil. It is a part of what it means to be human, as people do this every day to others and themselves without even realizing it. Is it manipulative to do this, or is it a function of using with purpose a tool that before we didn't realize we had?

Just my two cents on that.

@Prodigy
Thank you for the examples. I never thought to use it that way but I can see how it works. With each exchange her choices of response are increasing exponentially. Eventually it must get to a point where those responses may each a plateau. I guess my question is how do you manage each of those choices that she has in an effective manner. Personally, I can't think that fast consciously, and really don't care to. This brings me back to socially mandatory responses. Seems that there must be a way to limit the number of expected responses to a statement and still reach the finish line.

[Guest]

It's manipulative when you do it on purpose.

[Guest]

I am busted! :D I agree with you. It is the idea that manipulation is a bad thing, that I disagree with. I have friends who say that the entire art of seduction is really the art of manipulation. After all, we learn the things we learn to become more successful, more powerful, more attractive, more desirable men. There is an element of manipulation there. If we didn't manipulate our environment, ourselves and other people with intent, we would still be living in caves, and hitting women over the head with clubs. Manipulation is a tool in a toolbox. Nothing more. As with all tools, it's user and use determine it's morality.

[Guest]

I agree with you.

We are master manipulators.

Quick story. I just reconnected with a little hottie that I was seeing, on the side, a few months ago. We met up for drinks and I lead the conversation to the topic of why we stopped seeing each other. Her answer? She freaked out because everything I did and said was pretty much perfect. We had the best dates, I fucked her like a MAN should, I held her in check when needed, and I lead/protected her.

Sometimes, there is such a thing as being too good at manipulation. This is why I try very, very hard these days to not actively manipulate a girl. I think my natural tendencies are more than enough to get what I want from a woman.

I'm not comfortable with being a master manipulator...AND, I try to not be too shady in my dealings but it's inevitable I suppose.

[Guest]

Is it manipulation if it's enforcing what you want out of a mate?