Nice Guys

[Guest]

There's a theme I've seen many times over in the community.

It goes like this: A man, who would label himself as "nice," has difficulty getting women (or more often, one woman in particular.) He is frustrated because the high school quarterback (or insert your own character here), who he considers a jerk, gets all the babes.

So the nice guy reads the game, reads Mystery's stuff on negging, loves the thought of taking control out of the hands of victimhood and he joins the community.

My question to you. Do you think that being "nice" is what prevented him from getting the girl, (and that being a "jerk" is what got the football player the girl?), or what are your thoughts on this?

[Guest]

Nice Guy:

Easy
She can have him at any time
Has no options
Girls aren't pining for his attention
Is actually way too nice
Puts her on a pedestal
Never steps up to the plate and declares his love
Boring
*And the list just goes on and on negatively for the nice guy

Jerk:

Confident
Has many options
His Dick smells like pussy
He is on the pedestal and acts accordingly
Doesn't suck up
Great challenge
Revered
*And the list just goes on positively for the bad boy jock


Now maybe I am wrong about the nice guy. Maybe he is a pimp sax player and leader of the school band. Surely he would have a few groupies then changing some of the ways he interacts with girls. But I am going on the fact that the nice guy is usually gameless. Based on these the nice guy loses to the jerk because the jerk has all the characteristics that a girl looks for. The nice guy is just a boring pile of mush that she garners no attraction for.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=playercool;36214]Nice Guy:

Easy
She can have him at any time
Has no options
Girls aren't pining for his attention
Is actually way too nice
Puts her on a pedestal
Never steps up to the plate and declares his love
Boring
*And the list just goes on and on negatively for the nice guy

Jerk:

Confident
Has many options
His Dick smells like pussy
He is on the pedestal and acts accordingly
Doesn't suck up
Great challenge
Revered
*And the list just goes on positively for the bad boy jock


Now maybe I am wrong about the nice guy. Maybe he is a pimp sax player and leader of the school band. Surely he would have a few groupies then changing some of the ways he interacts with girls. But I am going on the fact that the nice guy is usually gameless. Based on these the nice guy loses to the jerk because the jerk has all the characteristics that a girl looks for. The nice guy is just a boring pile of mush that she garners no attraction for.[/QUOTE]


I agree 100%. But I think it's curious that everyone I meet seems to think that the guy who puts a girl on a pedestal and is easy etc etc (everything from your first group) is actually "nice." I mean, I know he thinks he's nice. But what about those things is actually nice from a woman's POV?

I mean, if someone rolls over for you, does that make them nice or does it just mean they're weak and can't do anything else? Serious question.

[Guest]

You hear or read about nice guys complaining that girls don't appreciate them for being nice. The question is what are they expecting in return? Or, better yet, why are they expecting anything in return? The problem is they're nice because of a hidden agenda. Being nice to get somewhere with a girl is not being nice at all.

In fact, the "nice guy" is putting the expectation on the girl to know he's interested without stating his intentions and putting guilt on her for not liking him just because he does her bidding. She doesn't want that put on her, so he's actually being manipulative. I don't think that's nice either.

The proverbial football hero, on the other hand, is probably nice on his own terms, i.e. when she deserves it or because he feels like it. The football hero, or "jerk," doesn't care if a good deed is rewarded. If anything, he's more genuinely nice than the "nice guy."

[Guest]

I can share an AFC story from when I was in college that shaped the way I think a lot. So there was this girl, totally smoking fine, in one of my classes. For whatever reason, I just could never gather up the balls to even talk to her. So the last day of class, she comes in looking like she was ready for a Miss America pagent or something. I mean she was decked out - hair, makeup, everything, just gorgeous - obviously she spent a lot of time on it. She comes and sits next to me. I talk to her a little bit, but I don't take it anywhere because I was not self-assured enough at that time in my life, and frankly I thought she was too hot for me.

So class ends, and I leave feeling pretty disappointed. I realize I left a notebook behind, so I go back to the class, and as I walk by the bathroom outside I can hear her bawling her eyes out crying with two of her friends in there with her.

Another one of her friends comes up to me and is like mad and sad and says "Why didn't you talk to her?"

Man, that day sucked. There was nothing "nice" about the way I acted. My "niceness" left her feeling unfairly rejected.

So what I took from that was a lot of lessons. I think you're right about the nice guy being motivated by selfish reasons.

[Guest]

I think it just equates to nice guys being pussies and jerks being assertive, knowing what they want and how to get it. That is seen by your story you told. You were a weak pussy, and she hated you for it. AKA beta. Jerks are not beta, they are alpha. And alphas do what they want when they want and don't give a shit if it pisses you or someone else off. And that can get them a jerk label.

Lets face it, most "jerks" have charisma. Nice guy pushovers have nothing of value to offer to others.

[Guest]

I think you can be a nice guy, and just not get taken for granted. I personally don't see myself as an asshole at all. I really don't think the tactics taught by Mystery and the other Goonies have the end goal of making us all assholes.

Politeness, courtesy, manners, being personable, having a light hearted energy about you, etc. are all things that (in my mind) make you a nice guy.

As someone said above, you're not being the nice guy because you're actually a nice guy (in reality you're probably a bitter little boy.) You're being nice because you have a hidden agenda. You're being nice because that's as far as you'll let yourself express your intentions.

Take a nice guy, sprinkle in some self-respect and confidence...and voila! You have a guy that is generally liked by all, easy to get a long with, fun to flirt with, carries himself in a dignified manner, etc. Jaded outlooks on the world and a general "Fuck you" attitude aren't required to get women.

I forgot to elaborate on the "tactics" you learn in the community...

In-direct openers: AA and flat out not knowing what to say are two of the biggest sticking points people come to this community with. There are a slew of openers available in books and the Internet to give you ideas of what to say. To help you develop in to a talkative person and eventually evolve in to someone who just talks to people.

False-time-Constraints: Teach you that you shouldn't invest yourself fully in to a conversation/situation without there being value in it for you...not that you need to pretend that you've always got something better to do (or to seem like a tweaker that can't stand still.)

Kino: Comfort builder. Not necessarily comfort for her, but for you. If you're comfortable enough to touch someone you just met, chances are conversing with them will be more natural. It also breaks subconscious barriers with whomever you are interacting with. I don't necessarily see it as a method to flip attraction switches, especially in the earlier stages.

Doing magic: One of the silliest things guys seem to pick up from the books. This isn't supposed to teach you that parlor tricks make panties wet. You're supposed to take from it that things you found entertaining as a kid can make things simple and fun when talking to chicks. Magic is kinda nerdy...well doing nerdy things in front of strangers shows confidence.

Negs: I don't think the point of a neg is to be a dick to knock a bitch down a peg or two. I think what you're supposed to take from doing it is that you can tease/poke fun at people you don't know w/o fear of them being offended. Just like you would your buddies.

If being a dick works for you, super. I just don't think that should be a goal for guys here. Sticking up for yourself and not being/acting desperate for a person's attention/affection (pedestal) should be.

[Guest]

The term 'nice guy' has gotten a super bad rap. I think that term has been dragged through the mud. I, for one, do consider myself to be a nice guy. The difference is that I'm nice on my own terms and because I want to be nice, not because I think being nice will get me something or somewhere. When I feel as if a woman has geniunely earned my time, effort, and affection then I've found that I'm a super generous person. But, there are rules. In exchange for my generosity I expect respect, loyalty, honesty, and appreciation. I also expect for her to pay it forward to me in whatever ways she chooses to be generous. It's a two way street. The imbalance comes into play when it becomes one way.

We define 'nice' as putting a woman on a pedestal, going the extra mile for her affection when she has done nothing to warrant that behavior from him. In other words, 'nice' guys are being nice when the girl has not earned such treatment. But, I totally disagree. I don't think that makes you 'nice.' Treating a woman in a way in which she does not deserve makes you a pussy. Pure and simple. This goes both for being good to her as well as treating her poorly. If a woman acts like a child, treat her as such, if she acts like a goddess, treat her as such, if she acts like a whore, treat her as such.

The idea of the jerk is nothing but others being bitter. The 'nice guys,' or pussies as I call them, are frustrated and envious of the guy with the girl that they secretly pine for so they refer to him as a 'jerk.' It's no different than if you see a car that's nicer than yours taking up two parking spots. You call them a 'jerk' or arrogant or a douche because of what they did and because they have something you don't. If it's a Yugo taking up two spots you just call them an idiot and go about your way enjoying the humor from the juxtaposition of a shitty car taking up two spots.

The term 'jerk' is nothing more than a moniker that the guys that are envious of others throw at them in an effort to try to bring the 'jerk' down to their level or to feel more virtious than the 'jerk.' The 'nice guy' thinks that he's better because he's more accomodating to women and thus a better person. They find solace in this thinking because it makes them feel superior even if they don't have the results to back up their assertion. They think of themselves as martyrs, sacrificing success with women so they can do the right thing and treat women 'properly.'

This is further excasberated by the fact that women routinely call the men that are the objects of their affection assholes, jerks, or pricks...the list could go on and on. So, the guy without the girl hears about the complaints that the girl has about her boyfriend, the jerk, and he believes that what she wants is someone that will never cause any problems and live up to her expectations at all times. The problem occurs when these guys take this bitching session literally. She's just venting, you don't get all fired up about people that you don't care for...it's the people that you care about that cause you to get upset. What she's really upset about is that she can't understand why a man acts the way a man does. Why a man won't comply to her every whim. Why a man won't do what she wants him to do at all times. For women, it's an issue of compliance. I heard a line once from a movie: "We all fall for the jerk. Jerks are spontaneous, they're unpredictable and they're fun. And then we're surprised when they turn out to be jerks." It's an issue of compliance. We don't comply with them in the beginning which builds attractions, then when they 'fall for us' they want us to comply, and when we don't we're labeled jerks...if we do, we become husbands.

And so, the mystique of the jerk is born. Most men misintrepret the frustration women have of the jerk's actions, then they act in a different way than the man getting results, they don't get the same results, so it loops around and they position themselves as the virtious 'nice guy' fighting the good fight in the battle of the sexes. The 'nice guy' finishes last for a reason, because he's a pussy. He's unwilling to man up and do what is necessary to make his intentions clear, to hold true to himself and what makes him happy, and to not apologize for who he is and what he wants.

Simply put, the concept of jerks and nice guys is envy on the part of men that don't get women combined with misunderstanding the venting associated with a woman's frustrations of the typical male-female friction found in a relationship.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Bull Run;36223]
Simply put, the concept of jerks and nice guys is envy on the part of men that don't get women combined with misunderstanding the venting associated with a woman's frustrations of the typical male-female friction found in a relationship.[/QUOTE]

Man, that was an amazing post. That post was loaded with great stuff, but this last paragraph sums it all up beautifully.

The words "jerk" and "nice guy" are misused and twisted up in the community. That bothers me a bit, because words matter. To me, a jerk is someone who disregards others and only gives a shit about himself. Someone who is nice is basically unselfish.

Like Smirks was saying, of course you can be an unselfish person and still be assertive. And I agree with Rhody and Bullrun that it's mainly an ego thing why self-proclaimed "nice guys" who flood the community have hijacked the word - what I called a "victimhood" mentality, BR called "martyr" mentality, and it's the same thing. Whatever it is, it's a false self-image. They call themselves "nice" to boost up an image of themselves that just isn't true.

The problem with having an ego is all the blind spots. You want to believe in and project this self-image, and in so doing you lose a sense of who you really are. In essence, you bullshit yourself and believe it. That college experience was huge for me, because it was like a torpedo hitting one of my blind spots and blasting it away.

[Guest]

Wow, great post BR!

Here's an article written by a female that I thought was pretty good.


==============================================

Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless **** for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually payed some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that get's attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.