FR: 3/26-29/10 Traxxus - Day Game - Night Game - Trip to Atlanta

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Bull Run]She's not going to beg for a cold read from some dude that may or may not have a lot of value...but, she definitely will beg for a cold read from a guy that has showed and projected a lot of value.[/QUOTE]

I have viewed the Routine as a DHV for me. I am demonstrating my value to her by running a cold read on her and being insightful about her. I don't think it's the cold read that freaks her out, but like you say, the kino. So I typically run this around the third routine in my stack (or have been anyway.) First, I have been running Gummy Bears vs. Gummy Worms or some other laugh factor opinion opener. Then once I have exhausted that thread, I go to Strawberry fields, or the cube. Afterwards, I have been doing 5 rings. I think I will replace this with some non-kino cold read like astrology(bloodstrology) etc. . . I'll save kino routines until after she has touched me in some way. I would assume that a playful hit, or some sort of cress would be the norm here.

I've been learning alot about eye movements too and have been working on developing a human lie detector routine for my own use. I think it would be a really cool game to play in set that regardless of right or wrong would DHV.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=traxxus;35582]I've noticed that when I run ring routine and go kino that they let me, but right after I'm done they jerk their hand away. Not sure if it's something in my delivery or what? I always keep it upbeat and positive. This happened on this chick and an Air Force chick I talked to.[/QUOTE]

How much kino is necessary to do the ring finger routine? You only need to look at her hands for a second or two, right? It's a kino routine because it's a few steps up the kino escalation ladder (I tried to find a link to Vin DiCarlo's free ebook, but he must not be offering it for free anymore. If you haven't read it and you can find it, it's awesome). Pretty early in the interaction, you can say, "give me your hands," and a girl will put her hands in yours. So, not only do you take a couple of steps up the kino escalation ladder, but you also get compliance. The point of kino is not just to touch, but to gradually get her used to being touched by you. The ring finger routine is just one step up the ladder from accidentally bumping elbows to bumping uglies. You look at her hands for whatever time is necessary to see what fingers she has rings on (1 or 2 seconds), and then you drop them. Anything beyond that really is creepy. I wouldn't hold onto her hands throughout the routine unless I was deep into comfort with her.

Besides, don't you do animated things while describing what each finger means? Like, if she wears a ring on her middle finger, you start flipping each other off, of if she wears a ring on her pinkie, you say she's a warrior or a gangster, so you ask her to protect you and feel her muscles. Maybe the way I do this routine is different from what other people do.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=traxxus;35610]I have viewed the Routine as a DHV for me. I am demonstrating my value to her by running a cold read on her and being insightful about her. I don't think it's the cold read that freaks her out, but like you say, the kino. So I typically run this around the third routine in my stack (or have been anyway.) First, I have been running Gummy Bears vs. Gummy Worms or some other laugh factor opinion opener. Then once I have exhausted that thread, I go to Strawberry fields, or the cube. Afterwards, I have been doing 5 rings. I think I will replace this with some non-kino cold read like astrology(bloodstrology) etc. . . I'll save kino routines until after she has touched me in some way. I would assume that a playful hit, or some sort of cress would be the norm here.

I've been learning alot about eye movements too and have been working on developing a human lie detector routine for my own use. I think it would be a really cool game to play in set that regardless of right or wrong would DHV.[/QUOTE]



Cold reads are really powerful because women believe in all of that fate, mystical, deep, emotional connection bullshit.

But, you're running that routine way too early. As a matter of fact, IHMO, I think you're running the Cube way too early as well. Strawberry Fields, the Cube, 5 Rings, and others like it take longer to develop and run so they're best served to be used when you've got her in comfort. They're comfort routines really, not attraction routines. If you think about it it makes a lot of sense. Why would a virtual stranger take so much time to figure out things about another stranger? It's over investment at that juncture if you ask me.

My suggestion would be to use an opener but be able to elaborate on the opener itself. For example, if you use Gummy Bears vs. Gummy Worms, then you can tell a short story about your friend/little sister/brother/whatever that you convinced to eat a real worm by claiming it was a Gummy Worm. But, the joke is really on you because you can't eat Gummy Worms because you're afraid that there could be real ones in the package.

I'm making this up, but you get the idea. Also, be sure to throw in various threads that she can respond to. You don't need a routine stack per sey, if you can load a simple little story with bits and pieces that she can respond to thus sparking a real conversation. I would have them primed in your back pocket ready to go, so you can run them when the time is right...if the time is ever right.

A routine stack is too rigged for normal, casual social interactions. People don't generally talk in a linear fashion, they bounce around from subject to subject. A routine stack doesn't have the flexibility to allow for a casual conversation, what ends up happening is that you keep pulling her back into the stack when she's off somewhere else. Eventually it gets awkward.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Rhody]How much kino is necessary to do the ring finger routine? You only need to look at her hands for a second or two, right?[/QUOTE]

I use this to hold their hand as I am going step by step first through the fingers they don't have rings on, and then through the fingers they do. I've been tracing lines on there backhand as I talk about the ring finger and how it's the only finger that has a vein going all the way back to the heart, etc... So there can be alot.

[QUOTE=Bull Run]But, you're running that routine way too early. As a matter of fact, IHMO, I think you're running the Cube way too early as well. Strawberry Fields, the Cube, 5 Rings, and others like it take longer to develop and run so they're best served to be used when you've got her in comfort. They're comfort routines really, not attraction routines. If you think about it it makes a lot of sense. Why would a virtual stranger take so much time to figure out things about another stranger? It's over investment at that juncture if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

So I guess the part of this whole thing that I am missing is attraction routines. I've been operating under the model that attraction = DHV + Comfort. So in order to build attraction I have to run DHV and comfort routines. What you're saying is that this isn't so. Can you give me an example of a well known "attraction routine"? I'm using routines as a crutch right now and I know it, but I think that as I calibrate better I won't have to rely on them as heavily.

Also I totally get what you're saying about routines. I found that out the hard way when I did my first few approaches ever. I had memorized a routine stack but it felt so mechanical in the delivery. So what I have been doing is listening for opportunity's in an existing conversation to introduce a routine. I'll severe the thread and go on to something else if she bounces, and then pick it up later if the opportunity arises. What I have learned is that continuously going back to a dead thread makes you look try-hard.

One of the critical things it seems like I am lacking is story-telling. I don't have a problem with story delivery, I have a challenge with improv and delivering relevant stories on the spot.

[Guest]

If anybody is interested, here is a link to the Vin DiCarlo Kino Escalation Ladder, the free ebook by Vin DiCarlo:
[URL="http://www.vindicarlo.com/DiCarlo%20Escalation%20Ladder%20-%20vindicarlo.com.pdf"]http://www.vindicarlo.com/DiCarlo%20Escalation%20Ladder%20-%20vindicarlo.com.pdf[/URL]

Looking at the document, my opinion is that you go from incidental contact to overt contact when you hold her hand through the whole routine. With palm reading, you need to hold her hand. But when determining what fingers she wears her rings on, you don't need that much contact, so it becomes overt. This might make them uncomfortable, ESPECIALLY if they are captive on an airplane or in an airport terminal. In a bar, she can just walk away if she doesn't like you touching her.

I used to do the ring finger routine a lot, but I pretty much dropped it. If a girl is interested, she is usually only interested in the fingers she wears rings on. So if I do this routine, I only talk about those fingers. I make it short and playful rather than deep and mysterious. I guess what I am saying is that we both field tested this routine with similar results. Routines are not rules. They don't always work. If it doesn't work for you, drop it or modify it to suit your style or pace.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=traxxus;35614]One of the critical things it seems like I am lacking is story-telling. I don't have a problem with story delivery, I have a challenge with improv and delivering relevant stories on the spot.[/QUOTE]


You need to focus more on story-telling than you do anything else. IMHO, my story-telling ability has almost always been the clincher. If you can't improv and deliever the right story, at the right time then you'll never be able to deliever the right routine at the right time, thus making your routines useless.

I think the point that has been made here is that you 100%, absolutely need to know what to run and when to run it. Timing is more important than the actual routine. The delievery of a story is more important than the content, trust me. If you read some of my stories that I've told in the past on a piece of paper they're humoruous but not laugh out loud funny until I actually start telling them.

My suggestion is to get creative. Draw a framework out for the story and try to put small hooks in there that she could latch on later down the road. Then, practice telling the story over and over and over and over in front of the mirror while you experiment with different facial expressions, hand gestures, eye movement, ect. Get to the point where telling the story just becomes natural. Also, understand that the story will not be the exact same. Each telling, there something will be slightly different...an inconsequential detail, a facial expression, the inflextion of your voice. The goal is to make them think that this is a story that you've only told a few times and they're one of the few to hear it, if it's too rehersed they'll know that you repeat the story over and over.

I'd focus more on story-telling than gambits and routines. They're more original, more interesting, and less contrived.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Rhody;35615]If anybody is interested, here is a link to the Vin DiCarlo Kino Escalation Ladder, the free ebook by Vin DiCarlo:
[URL]http://www.vindicarlo.com/DiCarlo%20Escalation%20Ladder%20-%20vindicarlo.com.pdf[/URL]
[/QUOTE]


Personally, I think pretty much everything in this is kind of creepy. Touch stomach to stomach? Act like you're wiping something off her face? That's just weird. For effective kino, you only need to focus on a few different places to touch her:

-The small of her back
-Her thigh
-A handshake (which I always turn into a thumb wrestle, which is pretty common in the Community)
-The back of her head (if you're kissing, give that area a light tug)

If you start caressing her neck, running your hands through her hair, stroking her arm/hand then you just come off as creepy.

He does have a good point regarding kissing though. For the first one, don't make it into a make out fest. Just a short kiss with a little taste of tongue should be sufficient.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Bull Run;35619]Personally, I think pretty much everything in this is kind of creepy. Touch stomach to stomach? Act like you're wiping something off her face? That's just weird. For effective kino, you only need to focus on a few different places to touch her:

-The small of her back
-Her thigh
-A handshake (which I always turn into a thumb wrestle, which is pretty common in the Community)
-The back of her head (if you're kissing, give that area a light tug)

If you start caressing her neck, running your hands through her hair, stroking her arm/hand then you just come off as creepy.

He does have a good point regarding kissing though. For the first one, don't make it into a make out fest. Just a short kiss with a little taste of tongue should be sufficient.[/QUOTE]

Wholeheartedly agree. Also, take material like this just as examples...not a playbook. Don't programmatically make these moves. Seems silly to say, but you'd be surprised at what I've seen...

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Smirks;35620]Wholeheartedly agree. Also, take material like this just as examples...not a playbook. Don't programmatically make these moves. Seems silly to say, but you'd be surprised at what I've seen...[/QUOTE]

You know, it's been a while since I read it. I didn't realize that he calls it a "step-by-step formula." That is weird.

I always viewed it as a very detailed description of what everybody calls "kino escalation." It's something I had read once or twice just to see examples of the various levels and to get the golden nuggets, which, to me, were:
follow incidental contact with overt contact (my friend calls it "kino fractionation," which works especially well with breasts and between her legs);
always be escalating kino;
higher levels unlock lower levels; and
start escalation from kissing upward in a sex location.

My main reason for referencing it is that holding a woman's hand to read her palm is incidental contact, while holding a woman's hand for an extended period of time and tracing on the back of her hand is definitely overt, which may be why it seems unwelcomed early in a sarge.

I once had a girl who was telling me that she injured her knee and now when she bends her knee, it pops. I said, "no way, let me feel," and put my hand on her knee. She bent it, it popped, and then I took my hand off her knee. A minute later, I put my hand back on her knee and it was welcomed. The separation is important. If I had kept my hand there the first time, it would have gone from incidental to overt without that separation. In her mind the incidental contact never happened and now there's just overt contact. There would be no fractionation.