Being Beta-Alpha?

[Guest]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Recently, I have been addicted to a PU blog that has very interesting articles on all things pertaining to PU. The author places a HUGE emphasis on being “Alpha.”[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]You can find his blog here --> [URL]http://roissy.wordpress.com/[/URL][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I took his dating market value test (a questionnaire to see how one stacks up against other men, really, a test of alpha-ness) and I was categorized as the “Classic Beta,” to which I do not entirely agree with. After analyzing the questionnaire, it was determined that I lost several points for being nice, which he interprets as being beta.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]..this got me thinking..[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Is being nice really being beta? More importantly, does this make you less attractive to women?[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Do understand that when I say nice in this instance, I am NOT referring to the typical “nice” guy persona or behavior (being a push over, needy, clingy, etc), as it is widely understood that women do not find the typical nice guy attractive (they’re more marriage material, according to “Double Your Dating” by David D’Angelo).[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I’ll use myself as an example. I possess some, but not all, of the nice guy traits. I was reared in a traditional Asian environment, and as such, I was taught to be polite, respectful and courteous; simply speaking, I have manners. I am generous, kind and unselfish. I make compromises -- there have been many times when I have placed a person’s needs before my own; I am cognizant of my actions and intelligently make the choice to do so. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]To many, the traits I possess and listed, would be considered beta, and thus those traits are unattractive to women. This is explained by the transitive property or transitive relation theory (commonly used in mathematics). [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]For Example: [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Women find being beta unattractive. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Those traits are beta. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Thus, women find those traits unattractive.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Does this make me beta? I say no. I would argue that most women DO find those traits desirable and attractive. I am not compromising the rules that I live by; I am staying true to myself and doing what I want to do. By definition, doesn’t that make me alpha?[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Often times, people put too much emphasis on being alpha and I believe that most truly do not understand what it means to be alpha. One who tries to appear alpha is in essence, not alpha. Alpha males don’t try to be alpha, they just are. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]The idea of being alpha has been discussed ad nauseam and I know that it is commonly preached that one is required to be alpha to be successful in PU. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]My question is...[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]..what does it really mean to be alpha? Your thoughts? [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Discuss in 3, 2, 1. GO! :cool:[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Guest]

I scored a 6, so Im an average beta as well. However, I think it's a bit of BS. Telling someone excuse me is no points but walking away gains them? WTF?!

[Guest]

I got a 10 on it myself, but its a stupid quiz in my eyes.

You get more points for being arrested than not.

[B]Have you ever been arrested?[/B]
No: 0 points
Yes: +1 point
Yes, for child pornography or public exposure: -1 point




[B]In the middle of the conversation you have to pee. You say:[/B]
(A) “I have to go to the bathroom. I’ll be right back.”
(B) “Excuse me.”
(C) nothing. Just go.
(A): -1 point
(B): 0 points
(C): +1 point


Just walking away mid sentence is something socially awkward people do.





[B]What is your IQ?[/B]
Under 85: -1 point
85 to 110: 0 points
110 to 130: +1 point
130 to 145: 0 points
over 145: -1 point


Here you lose points for being smart. Now, I get that super smart people lack common sense and social savvy since they have so much book smarts. But is being too smart really a beta trait? According to this quiz a genius and a retard get the same amount of points.




I like Roissys asshole-ish ways of thinking, and I do think nice guys finish last in most aspects of life. But this quiz makes me question his way of thinking.

[Guest]

I agree that the test is fatally flawed. I got a 12, but mostly because the questions are obvious to anyone who has studied pickup.

This is not in any way a scientific test. For example, according to the test, the older you are the less alpha you are. The opposite should be true. The Most Interesting Man in the World is not in his mid 20s.

On the topic of being nice, it's all a matter of how you approach it. If being nice is part of your core self, then it is alpha to be true to that. Consider a first guy who is passing someone in the supermarket breaking your line of sight, and he diverts his eyes, makes himself small, and meakly says, "excuse me." Now consider a second guy who stands tall, looks you in the eye, and uses an authoritative voice to say, "excuse me." Clearly, the second guy is more alpha, because he is being polite not as an excuse for his pathetic existence, but because it's part of who he is.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Just/Us;35260]I got a 10 on it myself, but its a stupid quiz in my eyes.

You get more points for being arrested than not.

[B]Have you ever been arrested?[/B]
No: 0 points
Yes: +1 point
Yes, for child pornography or public exposure: -1 point




[B]In the middle of the conversation you have to pee. You say:[/B]
(A) “I have to go to the bathroom. I’ll be right back.”
(B) “Excuse me.”
(C) nothing. Just go.
(A): -1 point
(B): 0 points
(C): +1 point


Just walking away mid sentence is something socially awkward people do.





[B]What is your IQ?[/B]
Under 85: -1 point
85 to 110: 0 points
110 to 130: +1 point
130 to 145: 0 points
over 145: -1 point


Here you lose points for being smart. Now, I get that super smart people lack common sense and social savvy since they have so much book smarts. But is being too smart really a beta trait? According to this quiz a genius and a retard get the same amount of points.




I like Roissys asshole-ish ways of thinking, and I do think nice guys finish last in most aspects of life. But this quiz makes me question his way of thinking.[/QUOTE]

I agree that some questions are assinine and the points system is flawed, but I understand the underlying logic.

Alpha males don't ask for permission, they just do want they want. But what's more attractive to women? someone with social etiquitte or not?

Being arrested gives you points because it portrays a bad boy image and most women find that attractive (though this is a generalization). The key is WHY you were arrested....

Geniuses (IQ 145+) are not beta, BUT they possess many qualities that are associated with being beta. Generally speaking, geniuses have a terrible time with women and are extremely socially akward. Note that I'm not referring to smart people as there are many intelligent people that are very comfortable in social situations...

I read kne comment that was interesting. Women like the idea of dating a smart man, but despise the fact that he is more intelligent than her. Women like you to be just smart enough to be able to engage in compelling conversations, yet still not quite as intelligent as her. That's why you gain no point for being smart (in this case having an IQ of 130-145).

[Guest]

Ah yes, the 'what does being alpha mean' question. In all truth, I think the entire concept of being alpha has gone way too far in the Community. There, literally, are guys that are consumed with being alpha even if it's destructive to their friendships, relationships, and lives.

Some of the alpha tendencies and actions just get flat out weird. It's alpha to just leave a crowd if you have to take a piss? It's alpha to get arrested? What the fuck is this guy smoking? That kind of shit doesn't make you alpha.

I don't ever think in terms of being the alpha male, in the past I did and I found that it resulted me in acting oddly. I would find myself being purposefully mean or unforgiving just because I wanted to appear alpha even if my actions went against what I really wanted to do. In many ways, I was too consumed by what the outside world perceived and would act in such a way to appear as being alpha.

Today, I think in terms of being a man, not being alpha. I think about what I want in my life, I think about what I want from others, how I want to be treated, what is, and is not, acceptable behavior and treatment. I suppose you could call it a moral compass. My goal, everyday, is to remain true to that compass. To remain true to myself. I have zero concern with how others perceive me because I'm doing exactly what I want to do. If that means that my behavior with a woman appears to be supplication, then so be it. I know what supplication is and I know my motives. If I want to do something nice with, or for, a woman then I just do it. Conversely, if my behavior seems cold or mean, then so be it. I'm not being malicious, I'm just doing what I think is right and if someone gets hurt along the way then I'm sorry but that's life.

Prodigy, if you truly believe that you should have manners, make compromises, and be courtesy towards others then so fucking what? That's your moral compass, stay true to it. Being alpha or a man, or whatever you want to call it, means staying true to yourself. It means living your life based on what you believe is right. It means doing that every single day. If you find yourself in a situation where you feel like a compromise is appropriate, then, by all means, feel free to make that compromise as long as you do it on YOUR terms. If you find yourself in a situation where you think compromise makes no sense, then don't make the compromise.

Behaving in ways that go against your moral compass means that you're beta. It's not a function of what you do (to a point), it's the motive behind your actions that dictate if you're being alpha or beta. That's what people don't understand. The interesting thing is that even though people can never truly know what your motives are, I think people can sense when you are behaving in a way that goes against what you believe. People can tell when your heart is in it and when it isn't.

Living by your morals all the time will not win you any popularity contests. But, people will respect you because they will understand that you live by what you think is right. And, respect is probably the most important thing that a woman needs from a man. If she doesn't respect him, she'll never love him, she'll never be happy with him, and she'll never stay with him.

[Guest]

Some aspects of this are stupid and in a way irrelevant in our community. being Alpha is 1 thing that some (not all) women prioritize in what they find attractive. Not the only thing, 1 thing. Meaning it is a way to appeal to some women, not the only way to appeal to all women like it is commonly portrayed. Bro, think about the idiots that perpetuate this shit and their motives... I've read some of this guy's stuff and basically I wasn't impressed. It is not the fact that a guy is alpha that is attractive it is the fact that he is strong. There are different to show your strength without being rude or inconsiderate to people. My favorite way to display strength is to be non-reactive. It suits my personality better then being excessively alpha. I too am just an all around nice and polite person. I am rarely thought of as weak or passive though.
Is Leonardo DiCaprio alpha? Fuck no. He displays almost none of the stereotypical masculine or bad-boy characteristics, yet women cream themselves everytime they think of him

[QUOTE=Prodigy;35255][URL="http://Is"][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Is[/URL] being nice really being beta? More importantly, does this make you less attractive to women?[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I’ll use myself as an example. I possess some, but not all, of the nice guy traits. I was reared in a traditional Asian environment, and as such, I was taught to be polite, respectful and courteous; simply speaking, I have manners. I am generous, kind and unselfish. I make compromises -- there have been many times when I have placed a person’s needs before my own; I am cognizant of my actions and intelligently make the choice to do so.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Prodigy, I would go as far as to say that you shouldn't and don't have to be overly alpha. You are pretty jacked. Women love the gentle giant, the big strong guy with a sensitive side. Have you read the art of seduction? It really helps you determine what your seductive characteristic and strengths are and cultivate them. If being powerfull(alpha) is not your strength that doesn't make you less effective or less attractive like this chode's blog says. Just means your strengths are different. I related the most to the charmer and the feminine dandy (both not the most alpha charateristics). All this to say that I don't feel alpha/not is really even all that important

[Guest]

In my experience it is important to control the frame. I would argue that as long as you can control the frame you are the "alpha" male. It's the moment that you are unable to control the frame that you become beta in the eyes of your target. This is in essence, leadership, which relates directly back to what is really means to be alpha. Do you have the ability to lead her, to be her "go to" person, to protect her and her off-spring?

I would argue further that things like excusing yourself to go somewhere, or being smart, can really add strength to your control of the frame. Being intelligent allows you to be able to multi-thread more effectively and enables more complex DHV's. Excusing yourself is a show of manners and social awareness, something every leader must have. There are things like apologizing for harmless actions or for nothing at all that certainly work against this. A true leader would never do these things, but a follower (read BETA) would.

Alpha = Leadership (the ability to control the frame and guide the interaction).