LMR

[Guest]

[quote1217267265=Sal Paradise]But I have also had pretty clear cut cases where the girl puts up LMR that is just token resistence. She wouldn't feel right without putting up some objection only to be totally into the sex later.[/quote1217267265]

I totally disagree. I think the techniques you did were pretty much worthless. The fact is that if you did ANYTHING other than get upset, pout, become too aggressive, or ask why then you passed.

My theory is that LMR or resistance is nothing more than the final shit test. They push me away to see how I react.

If I react as though I'm unaffected by the resistance by punishing her through a freeze out then I subcommunicate that I'm not ONLY interest in sex, therefore I pass.

If I react in any other manner then I ONLY wanted sex, therefore I fail.

Sure, you've done the I'm not gonna fuck you I'm gonna tease you line (which I think would work best while the two of you are on the day2, out in public, not at home, or maybe on the way home) and taking off your clothes first, whipping out your dick or whatever and the interaction ended up in you getting laid. My contention is that you don't have to do any of that stuff. The mere fact that you did them and got laid leads you think that the techniques worked, when in reality I would contend that anything was going to work...she just needed time, not a technique.

I'm reminded of Style's book in which he talked about getting LMR from the girl that turned out to become his girlfriend. He tried everything and nothing worked. The reason was because she knew he was a player (she saw a condom on his floor) and decided before getting into his bed that she wasn't going to have sex with him.

Girls make up their mind about sex BEFORE they ever get in the situation to HAVE sex. You need to make her want to have sex BEFORE things ever become physical, BEFORE you get her home.

If you get LMR it's because she doesn't want to have sex with you. There's always going to be some level of token resistance, but it's not LMR. LMR implies that she isn't sure she wants to have sex with you for whatever reason (buyers remorse, fear of you losing respect, fear of feeling like a slut, etc.). It implies that you CONVINCED her to have sex with YOU. Women just don't work that way. They know what they're doing, they've already made up their mind.

It's funny, but we as PUAs feel as if we control interactions and change outcomes. I think this is ridiculous. It's simply not true all the time. It's like most things in life. If we succeed at something we have a tendency of thinking we succeeded because we were skillful, if we fail at something we have a tendency of thinking that some external factor prevented us from our success. Our success rates increasing with women as we train to become a PUA is solely due to our increased confidence in social situations, we understand how to socialize and we're comfortable doing it.

The same holds true for LMR. If you fucked her after you ran some of the LMR techniques then you ascribe your success to your abilities, if you didn't fuck her after the techniques you ascribe your failure at not being able to tear down her LMR.

I truly believe that LMR is basically her way of saying I haven't decided to fuck you yet, so stop. A little bit of resistance is somewhat normal, but it shouldn't be so severe as to warrant techniques to combat against it. All you need to do is make her believe that sex isn't your sole goal.

[Guest]

So if she's an HB9.0 with LSE and DSL, does that mean that she'll put up more LMR?

[Guest]

[blockquote]Sure, you've done the I'm not gonna fuck you I'm gonna tease you line (which I think would work best while the two of you are on the day2, out in public, not at home, or maybe on the way home) and taking off your clothes first, whipping out your dick or whatever and the interaction ended up in you getting laid. My contention is that you don't have to do any of that stuff. The mere fact that you did them and got laid leads you think that the techniques worked, when in reality I would contend that anything was going to work...she just needed time, not a technique.[/blockquote]

Perhaps but all I know is since I have started using these techniques I have gotten laid more consistently. I think the I'm not gonna fuck you line is just another way of showing that you don't give a shit about sex. It is literally impossible for either of us to say for sure what leads to more lays without a controlled experiment (yes that is the nerdy side in me haha). There are situations where I used a lot of techniques (including comfort and qualification techniques) so there is no way for me to say she fucked me because of X. I would even say that the girl herself could not give you a precise answer as to why she fucked you. It is the entire package and these LMR busters are just the last ditch effort to close the deal.

[blockquote]Girls make up their mind about sex BEFORE they ever get in the situation to HAVE sex. You need to make her want to have sex BEFORE things ever become physical, BEFORE you get her home.[/blockquote]

I disagree with the first part of the statement at least in the absolute sense. I do think many girls do this before a date or going out to the bar, but I have come across a TON of girls (including friends who have told me their stories) where they have sex even though they didn't intend to. For example, this weekend one of my close female friends ended up going home with a guy that she promised herself she would not have sex with. She fucked him later on and has been regretting it for the entire weekend. This is an example of how powerful emotions can be. Girls may make up their minds but when it gets all hot and heavy, they think with their vag (LOL) and say fuck it.

The second part of this statement I totally agree with. Guys need to be setting a sexual frame early not when they are making out. I try to introduce sex as early and often as possible. But again, sexual frames and LMR techniques are not everything like I mentioned above.

[blockquote]The same holds true for LMR. If you fucked her after you ran some of the LMR techniques then you ascribe your success to your abilities, if you didn't fuck her after the techniques you ascribe your failure at not being able to tear down her LMR.[/blockquote]

True, this is a common attribution bias that has been studied in social psychology and is called the self-serving bias. People do this in all areas of their lives. But at the same time, as I said earlier, it is impossible to know exactly what it was that made her say yes.

I definately appreciate your point of view on this and I agree with more of it than probably seems like from this post. I just don't think you can say all women operate this way all the time.

[Guest]

[quote1217296582=Sal Paradise]Perhaps but all I know is since I have started using these techniques I have gotten laid more consistently. I think the I'm not gonna fuck you line is just another way of showing that you don't give a shit about sex. It is literally impossible for either of us to say for sure what leads to more lays without a controlled experiment (yes that is the nerdy side in me haha). There are situations where I used a lot of techniques (including comfort and qualification techniques) so there is no way for me to say she fucked me because of X. I would even say that the girl herself could not give you a precise answer as to why she fucked you. It is the entire package and these LMR busters are just the last ditch effort to close the deal.[/quote1217296582]

Fair enough. But, have you ever considered that the reason that these techniques work so well is that your confidence level has increased dramatically? I know from experience that when others tell you that something will work you tend to believe them and as such you have faith in what they are teaching you. This gives you a false sense of secruity and artifical confidence...you're confident that the technique works. I would contend that the technique worked because you were confident.

[quote1217296582=Sal Paradise]I disagree with the first part of the statement at least in the absolute sense. I do think many girls do this before a date or going out to the bar, but I have come across a TON of girls (including friends who have told me their stories) where they have sex even though they didn't intend to. For example, this weekend one of my close female friends ended up going home with a guy that she promised herself she would not have sex with. She fucked him later on and has been regretting it for the entire weekend. This is an example of how powerful emotions can be. Girls may make up their minds but when it gets all hot and heavy, they think with their vag (LOL) and say fuck it.[/quote1217296582]

Hey man, take a look at my post again. I said if a girl tells herself that she WON'T have sex with that means she WILL have sex with you. This girl already decided that she wanted to fuck this guy. All he had to do was show up and NOT FUCK IT UP! She made up her mind before she went out with him...

I remember I had a chick come over to my place for a day2. I had my patented Bar Hopping, Whirlwind, She's Not Too Sure Where We Went But Each Place Was Different From The One Before Date ready to go. BUT, first a drink...standard operating procedure. During the drink, she told me that she said to herself that she's "not going to have sex with him tonight."

Date was canceled. I turned the music up a little bit, led her to the couch, had her in bed 20 minutes later.

If a girl says she's not going to have sex with you, she definitely will have sex with you.

Now, she may feel bad about the decision but that doesn't takeaway from the fact that she still thought about, made a pact not to, and yet still did have sex with you. Once a woman even begins to think about what it would be like to have sex with you, she will have sex with you...assuming, of course, that you actually want to fuck her.

You kinda proved my point on that one brother ;)

I always love discussing this shit with you guys. I think SP has some good points, I think LMR DOES exist. BUT, I don't think it exists to the extent that the Community thinks it does. I would say 90% of the time when you run into LMR (read severe token rejection) she simply DOESN'T want to have sex with you.

So, I say respect that and stop trying these techniques. Don't you want to fuck a girl that's READY to pounce? If I have to 'sell' you on my cock, then I don't want you to buy...

[Guest]

I don't have sex with girls until they are begging for it. I also agree that almost all lmr is created before you are in bed. It's a comfort issue. If you make her comfortable enough that there are no consequences of having sex with you then even if you are a total ugly ass dude she will have sex with you. Sex is pleasureable for them too. There are 5 main fears that I can think of
1. “I May Get an STD”
2. “I May Get Pregnant”
3. “This Guy Might Fall in Love Too Quickly
and Stalk Me”
4. Social consequences “My friends / My coworkers
might find out and think I’m a slut”
5. “If I sleep with him early on, it may
ruin the chances of a future relationship or
friendship”

Deal with these and lmr will be pretty much nonexistent. I can further explain dealing with each of these, but it will be more than I want to write on it now. If you are interested just ask.

[Guest]

sweet! I want to ask about all 5. :D thx zine!

[Guest]

as per something I learned from finesse over the weekend it is much more effective to teach someone a frame than a specific technique. Here are frames I have found effective in creating little to no lmr.

1. Tell a story about a time when a girl was overly interested in you and turned needy and how it made you feel, or just accuse her of falling in love with you and stalking you playfully.
2. Ask her if she is trustworthy. Is she the kind of girl that kiss and tells. Show that you will keep your sexual encounters with her to yourself and not brag about them to all of your friends
3. Say shes trying to seduce you and will never call you back the next day. Joke and bust on her for being on the prowl, a “man-eater” who uses guys for sex and then never calls them back. Find out what her views on relationships and romance are, and approve of her views. Relate to them if you can, but don’t fake it. If you don’t see eye-to-eye, at least accept her perspective without judgment. It’s important that she doesn’t see you as a guy who just wants to use her for one night. Sure, you may want to take her home to tonight, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to want to see her again!

I know this is exactly what I put in the other post, but hey you asked the same question twice lol.

[Guest]

Best way to treat LMR is to not get it in the first place. I have to agree that if you get LMR then the girl doesn't want to sleep with you and you've messed up already and you're in damage control. Techniques might work sometimes to get the close, but if she's not happy about her choice she's much less likely to be coming back for more.

I would also add that women might have some concept of whether they "want" to have sex on a conscious level, but what they really want subconsciously might be quite different. When they put themselves in a situation where sex is likely, they are making a choice. They can say "it just happened" which helps them maintain their contradiction: they want sex but they can't admit to wanting sex.

Which is NOT to say that if a girl goes home with you then she automatically wants to sleep with you. She is probably open to the possibility, but she may be highly skeptical, meaning the odds are not good.

One of the most important things is not being too eager and needy, and not being only interested in sex. If you try a freeze-out and end up coming off as pouty, that works against you because it reinforces neediness and only wanting sex. If you tell her "we're not going to have sex tonight" then it helps demonstrate non-neediness and that you're not just after sex. If it gets hot and heavy but she keeps stopping you, go to sleep and try it in the morning.

[Guest]

[blockquote]Fair enough. But, have you ever considered that the reason that these techniques work so well is that your confidence level has increased dramatically? I know from experience that when others tell you that something will work you tend to believe them and as such you have faith in what they are teaching you. This gives you a false sense of secruity and artifical confidence...you're confident that the technique works. I would contend that the technique worked because you were confident.[/blockquote]

Maybe, but again there are too many variables to know for sure exactly what did it. There is no denying that confidence is a factor but the first time I tried the "I'm not gonna fuck you line" I wasn't really confident in the line because I had never used it. I was confident that I would probably at least get a bj because the girl was into me. In that case it may not have mattered.


[blockquote]Hey man, take a look at my post again. I said if a girl tells herself that she WON'T have sex with that means she WILL have sex with you. This girl already decided that she wanted to fuck this guy. All he had to do was show up and NOT FUCK IT UP! She made up her mind before she went out with him...

I remember I had a chick come over to my place for a day2. I had my patented Bar Hopping, Whirlwind, She's Not Too Sure Where We Went But Each Place Was Different From The One Before Date ready to go. BUT, first a drink...standard operating procedure. During the drink, she told me that she said to herself that she's "not going to have sex with him tonight."

Date was canceled. I turned the music up a little bit, led her to the couch, had her in bed 20 minutes later.[/blockquote]

Good point, if a girl has to promise herself not to have sex with someone that shows she wants to have sex with them. A girl would never have to do this with a guy that she wasn't attracted to.

[blockquote]I always love discussing this shit with you guys. I think SP has some good points, I think LMR DOES exist. BUT, I don't think it exists to the extent that the Community thinks it does. I would say 90% of the time when you run into LMR (read severe token rejection) she simply DOESN'T want to have sex with you.
[/blockquote]

I do agree with this. Since I have gotten better at game overall I have gotten less LMR. If you play solid game it is more likely to be just token resistance. The Don told me at my bootcamp that he remembers Mystery would get into these epic 5 hour LMR battles but that he thinks it was because Mystery did not spend enough time in comfort. The girls would end up in bed with him and think "who is this guy with the furry hat?" The Don said he almost never gets LMR but even he will still use the 'your clothes off first trick' and freeze outs when the situation calls for it. Of the girls I have laid this summer I would say the majority gave me NO LMR, a few gave me token LMR, and only one gave me serious LMR. If I hadn't used the techniques on the serious LMR girl I probably wouldn't have gotten laid and since this girl was on a vacation, it was a do or die situation.