Body Building, IOI's and Skittishness

[Alphagame]

I started working out 8 months ago and I don't think I've eaten anything fried in over a year.

That said, about 90 to 120 days ago, I started noticing women checking me out. Not just in bars, but everywhere. At lunch, at stores, everywhere I go, it's great. I mean, it's a great ego boost. But it certainly doesn't get you laid. I'm getting make-outs and kisses in the bars, but then I get cock-blocked and dead ended in phone game. They won't even answer when I call. I don't get it. I'm screened to voice mail.

It's especially good in the winter because I go to Plam Beach Tans twice a week. A nice tan in the winter really makes you stand out against the average white guy.

One thing I've noticed about women is, when they check you out, they stare into your eyes. I think guys are more inclined to glance down towards a woman's feet and then back up again to her face. I've never noticed a woman doing this. But they do stare at my eyes.

One thing I've started trying to do is hold eye contact with them and force them to look away first. I read it on a message board, that instinctively, women are seeking a man who has the balls to stare them down. I dunno, just a habit I'm trying to get into. At first, I was petrified to hold eye contact with them. Now that I'm holding the eye contact until they look away first, I'm finding my AA is at it's lowest levels since I started studying pick-up.

Traditionally, I've always meddled in the 7 range. Some a little better, some a little worse, but the average woman I've approached and gamed has been in the 7 range. Now days, I'm still petrified of 10's and I still don't have the stones to approach them. But what I'm noticing from the 7's, I guess, is, they're a little more stand-off'ish (if that's even a word). It's like, I approach, go into a routine, I'm getting all the IOI's and then for whatever reason, things are stalling out. I go the restroom, come back, she's into heavy conversation with a guy who's obviously way uglier than me and I'm on the outside looking in. Like, I almost get the impression they don't really think they're good enough for me or something, so they're seeking not-so hot men that are more on their level.

And I know what everyone is thinking: You must have boring conversation. No, I really don't think so. My conversational skills have improved 1,000% over the last 8 months. I promise you, I'm not coming off as boring. I'm escalating kino. I honestly don't know what the fuck I'm doing wrong.

Is this normal? Does the game require that you more or less operate with women in your "zone" or whatever you want to call it? Would it actually be easier for a hot guy to seduce an 8.5 than it would be to seduce a 7?

Another question: I've read on message boards and stuff, guys coaching guys on gaming women, and the overwhelming advice is, don't alter or change your routine or approach when you game a perfect 10. New material should be used and tested on 7's, but when dealing with 10's, use establsihed stuff. I guess the alarming thing about this is, we're tempted to alter things when dealing with really hot women. Instinctively, we think that what we do normally should be altered for really hot women.

Ok, if we guys are thinking like this, like, we're intimidated by perfect 10's, and I know I sure as hell am, does it not work the same way with women? Do they get nervous and alter their game when they're dealing with a really hot guy? Are defense shields going up that otherwise wouldn't be going up if I wasn't so hot?

I realize this must sound really conceded, but Mystery Method and the mass marketed pick-up stuff is really targeted for the average guy who's not hot. I'm actually tempted to try whining about how I can't get any women and see if they don't pounce on me. I mean, I know that's like 1000% opposite of all the teachings out there, but sometimes I wonder how that would work out.

Any feedback appreciated.

[playercool]

That said, about 90 to 120 days ago, I started noticing women checking me out.

Probably your confidence went up and that showed. In addition I have a feeling you started watching your surroundings more and keeping/making eye contact with these women.

One thing I've started trying to do is hold eye contact with them and force them to look away first.

Indeed. Just last night a girl walks by at the bar and I make strong eye contact with her. I know I could of opened her at that point but I was having an off night. A while later I walked by her again and just stared right into her eyes. She then proceeded to open me. I think the saying is if she looks down then she is interested but if she looks to the side then you should move on.

As far as gaming 7's unless your looks are model looks I doubt they are getting intimidated by you. There are all sorts of reasons why they might not be attracted to you. Think back at your success with some and why you failed with others there has to be a reason. For example I know some of my recent failures is because I showed too much interest. For example when talking to the HB9 I was leaning in to her talking in her ear. Big mistake ecspecially since she was a HB9 or so. What you should do is start raising your caliper of women you game. That is currently what I am trying to do. I am getting sick of building all this rapport with lower quality women. Raise your standards to a minimum HB8 and see what happens.

When dealing with 10's just make sure you throw in a couple more Negs. Negs are like crack to HB10's unless they have a super Low self esteem.

Try out your whining plan and see what happens. It is definately a major DLV so maybe it will help you if you think you are too hot for these girls. Try it on every set one night and see if it helps. If not move on.

Goodluck

[Alphagame]

Thanks for the advice. I eneded up F-closing a 7 last night, so I'm feeling a lot better today. It's nice to close a deal every now and then.

[101998]

Personally, I have gone from fit to overweight and am moving back to fit, and chicks never stopped checking me out. Looks don’t matter at all in my opinion, it is all about how you hold yourself and what you think you are worth. Also, I don’t really understand the difference between a 7 or a 10, even looking back when women intimidated me I don’t recall being more intimidated if the woman was hotter. They are just girls. The only reason to be afraid of approaching a girl is to think that you are not worth it, as in you think her value is higher than yours and you are trying to take approval from her. If you come from that frame it doesn’t matter how much game you have, you will self-sabotage and sub-communicate lower value. Fix the problem at the source, stop thinking hot women can add some kind of value to your life.

Thanks for the advice. I eneded up F-closing a 7 last night, so I'm feeling a lot better today. It's nice to close a deal every now and then.

Look at what you are saying, you are letting other people determine your self-worth. You are the only one who can decide how cool you are, and as long as you look to women for approval and validation the problems you are having right now will keep coming up.

[Bull Run]

Traditionally, I've always meddled in the 7 range. Some a little better, some a little worse, but the average woman I've approached and gamed has been in the 7 range. Now days, I'm still petrified of 10's and I still don't have the stones to approach them. But what I'm noticing from the 7's, I guess, is, they're a little more stand-off'ish (if that's even a word). It's like, I approach, go into a routine, I'm getting all the IOI's and then for whatever reason, things are stalling out. I go the restroom, come back, she's into heavy conversation with a guy who's obviously way uglier than me and I'm on the outside looking in. Like, I almost get the impression they don't really think they're good enough for me or something, so they're seeking not-so hot men that are more on their level.

I have the exact same problem. I wouldn't call myself a really great looking guy, but I'm much better than most and am usually one of the more attractive guys at whatever venue I'm at. Here's a great suggestion, to test how good looking you really are I'd post a couple of pics to hotornot.com. If you routinely get rated more attractive than 90% of the men on the site, then I think it safe to say that you are an attractive guy.

Anyway, I think women are intimated by men that they perceive to be better looking than them. I think this makes sense given the premium society places on women being attractive...the girl feels she's supposed to be the attractive one in the relationship/interaction/etc. Also, I've found that women think the same things of an attactive man that an AFC thinks of an attractive woman:

-AFCs think that an attractive woman is stuck up and bitchy.
-Women generally think attractive men are cocky and players (both of which I'm accused of being all the time).

Is this normal? Does the game require that you more or less operate with women in your "zone" or whatever you want to call it? Would it actually be easier for a hot guy to seduce an 8.5 than it would be to seduce a 7?

All else equal, I think it easier for a HB7 to be seduced by a dude that's about a 7 than it is for a dude that's a 9 or 10 to seduce the HB7. As a PUA, you can work around this but generally speaking people tend to stay in their ballpark...obviously, you can define value a ton of ways. For instance, an HB10 that's dumb as fuck, is boring, and sucks in bed will probably net out to being about 6-7 net net. In that case, a dude that's overall value is around a 6 or 7 can pull her REGARDLESS of his looks. You ever see that hot chick with that ugly ass douche? There's a reason, it's more than meets the eyes. I'm a finance guy. Usually when an asset is selling at an absurdly low valuation there's a reason. The same holds true for people.

Ok, if we guys are thinking like this, like, we're intimidated by perfect 10's, and I know I sure as hell am, does it not work the same way with women? Do they get nervous and alter their game when they're dealing with a really hot guy? Are defense shields going up that otherwise wouldn't be going up if I wasn't so hot?

I touched on this earlier, but yes the reverse holds true. This is why it's crucial that you calibrate the situation and stay as indirect as possible. You have to make her comfortable with you just as any other PUA has to make their target comfortable with them. The defense shields are the same, they just exist for a different reason. Truth be told, I've found that the guys with the most 'average' looks do the absolute best at PU...they fly below the intimidation radar and above the creepy ugly guy radar.

[Alphagame]

++++Here's a great suggestion, to test how good looking you really are I'd post a couple of pics to hotornot.com. If you routinely get rated more attractive than 90% of the men on the site, then I think it safe to say that you are an attractive guy.++++

The problem with a still photo is, it doesn't convey much about a guy's body language. Women are attracted to a man's looks, sure, but instinctively they're also paying a great deal of attention to his body language. I mean, you could be a great looking guy, but if you're standing around with both hands in your jeans pockets and looking down at your feet, women are gonna notice that. Body language has a tremendous effect on your overall attractiveness to a woman.

And nothing is more powerful than pre-selection. I've been eating lunch at a local sandwich shop every day for the last year, pretty much. About 6 months ago, they hired an assistant manager and she's a solid 9.5 to 10. Absolutely hot. Anyway, I've noticed the "eyes" from lots of other customers and some of the lower peons who work there, but NEVER from her. So finally, yesterday, while paying for my meal, they had a new girl working the register. She was really throwing IOI's at me, and it was pretty obvious. So I sit down and low and behold, for the FIRST time ever, I got the "eyes" from the 10.

I'm convinced you can be the ugliest fucker in town, but if you can show pre-selection, you're gold. That's often a lot easier said than done, though.

[Bull Run]

Here's a great suggestion, to test how good looking you really are I'd post a couple of pics to hotornot.com. If you routinely get rated more attractive than 90% of the men on the site, then I think it safe to say that you are an attractive guy.

The problem with a still photo is, it doesn't convey much about a guy's body language. Women are attracted to a man's looks, sure, but instinctively they're also paying a great deal of attention to his body language. I mean, you could be a great looking guy, but if you're standing around with both hands in your jeans pockets and looking down at your feet, women are gonna notice that. Body language has a tremendous effect on your overall attractiveness to a woman.

I totally agree. Attractiveness isn't just about your looks, it's about your presence. Still though, it's easier to learn how to create a presence than to become more physically attractive. Sort of the same thing with being fat or ugly...you can fix fat, you can't fix ugly. You can fix your presence but you can only do so much with what you look like.

That's often a lot easier said than done, though.

Exactly.