[quote1230670947=Acuity]
BR, I think you've been good long enough that you don't really know what's going on in the head of a complete newbie, man. It's not just that they're bad with chicks and that they need to get out there and get some experience (although there is that). It's that they have NO CLUE how it works! At all!
I'm assuming you're not, say, a photographer. If I were to tell you or anyone else that has no clue how to use a camera "hey, go out and take some portrait shots of this model", your pictures would suck. Obviously! It's natural to suck if you don't even know the FUNDAMENTALS like what is aperture, shutter speed, iso, dof, how to light correctly, composition, whatever.
From here I could say, "oh, just keep doing it until you get better. Read this book while you're at it." And you'll probably get better if you keep at it.
But in order to get REALLY good, you MUST take some photographic principles from others before you. You don't have to re-invent [b]every[/b] wheel. Break the principles if you want, but you have to KNOW them and OBSERVE them. Sure, everyone has the innate ability to take good pictures (after all, it's just point, flick a few dials, place a few lights, and shoot), but in order to find that ability you have to follow tried and true wisdom. From there you can develop your own photographic style that suits yourself.
Come on, man. Greater men than you and I have mentors. Surely you don't believe that one person can work through everything by himself?
[/quote1230670947]
If that's so, then the person is needing to learn social interaction, not necessarily pickup (yet.) When BR says do it yourself, he doesn't mean keep your nose buried in a book(s). Stuff like reading what's on this forum, going to the meet ups, reading (a little) info on some methodology to give yourself a base to work from...then...GOING OUT AND DOING SOMETHING. Sure, you might not do it correct off the bat...but if you're not dumb, deaf, and retarded...you'll learn from your mistakes. Also, post your experiences here and you can get others to help you learn from those mistakes.
I actually have no idea why I posted this, I know you and BR just like to push each others buttons, so its quite pointless. Maybe someone else will read it and understand what to take from it.
Dallas PUA
The Pickup Artist Playground
A question for the pua's who got through it
33 posts
• Page 3 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
by Guest » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:24 pm
Yo, it's not me and Bull run who disagree a lot, that was someone else.
And I agree that you're the only one who should be pushing yourself to do what you're doing. I'm just saying it's much easier if you have an external frame of reference with which to learn from.
And I agree that you're the only one who should be pushing yourself to do what you're doing. I'm just saying it's much easier if you have an external frame of reference with which to learn from.
- Guest
by Guest » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:29 pm
Also you will get a lot better feedback from someone seeing you in set than from posting a thread of what you perceived of the set. The operative words there are actually doing it :) I don't think B/R and acuity/I are disagreeing at all other than acuity and I think there is value from seeing and doing sets with people better than you are that you don't get otherwise.
- Guest
by Guest » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:39 pm
It's possible to get good on your own at anything, but to not learn from those who have gone before you can be a huge waste of effort.
I agree it can be done. I disagree that it's the only way. And I disagree that it's the best way for everyone.
Going out and DOING is absolutely mandatory, but to use it as the only way of learning something you can really sell yourself short. Especially if there are things you don't realize you're doing, like in a golf swing or swimming or something. In the case of pickup, it might be bad advice from your mother 20 years ago. Advice which you are following, but not consciously. If you're all on your own, it can be very hard to see the reason for the failure and you just keep beating your head against the wall. Other people can open new possibilities for you to consider, like that the advice is totally wrong.
As for the psychological journey and development of your judgement, that is a road nobody can walk for you. It's up to you to do that on your own. And it's up to you to decide what advice to try and what to ignore. And most of all you need the experience of doing.
I agree it can be done. I disagree that it's the only way. And I disagree that it's the best way for everyone.
Going out and DOING is absolutely mandatory, but to use it as the only way of learning something you can really sell yourself short. Especially if there are things you don't realize you're doing, like in a golf swing or swimming or something. In the case of pickup, it might be bad advice from your mother 20 years ago. Advice which you are following, but not consciously. If you're all on your own, it can be very hard to see the reason for the failure and you just keep beating your head against the wall. Other people can open new possibilities for you to consider, like that the advice is totally wrong.
As for the psychological journey and development of your judgement, that is a road nobody can walk for you. It's up to you to do that on your own. And it's up to you to decide what advice to try and what to ignore. And most of all you need the experience of doing.
- Guest
by Guest » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:42 pm
To say there's one way is wrong. If that's what you guys think I'm saying then I apologize for not articulating my message better.
I believe that watching others, while they're in big grops, in action is of very little value. Watching guys at different levels of skill and experience can be helpful but is still hard to internalize because you have to translate what you see them doing into principles that you can understand. The problem occurs in the translation, how do you translate principles you don't understand into ones you do?
So, you might ask why coaches are effective. It's simple really. They make you accountable, they kick you in the ass, and they tell you what to do. They give you structure. If you need that, then fine. Go for it. But, keep in mind that all they're doing is what I've been saying...which is basically that you have to quit being a pussy and just go do it.
I think one of the biggest distortions in the Community is that once you enter and you do the things you're supposed to do, then you should somehow become this amazing Casanova. This simply is not the case. We all are bounded by our respective realities. I posted something about sports the other day and the parallels to the Game. One more point to understand is that we're all bounded by our innate skill level. There are some things that simply will not change. You will probably not get any smarter or funnier or be able to run faster or jump higher or whatever. At some point, you simply reach your potential regardless of how hard you work or how much you want it. The great thing is that very few of us, myself included, can definitively say that I'm fully self-actualized. This is why you keep working and pushing. But, understand that you are here to be the best you that you can become.
I think it's better to surround yourself with a small group (read 2 - 3) of guys that are pretty much in the same place as you. Go out with them, and on your own. Keep reading, but don't make it obsessive. I think this type of structure will give you everything you need: 1) it gives you a group of guys that hold you accountable and that you grow with and have fun with, a support system 2) going on your own gives you an opportunity to find out who you really are without the support of your crew, this is when you begin to understand your assets and liablities 3) continuing to read will allow you to find those areas in your life when you got bad advice, just as Vector alluded to earlier.
What I'm really saying is that there is only one TopDog, Bull Run, grimm, playercool, Pictureperfect, Lion, Vector, etc. There is only one Gunner, Acuity, or JJE. I can't really teach you anything about yourself by allowing you to watch me, or anyone else, run a set. I can teach you about my Game, my personality, and what works for me. But, I'm of little to no use to you when it comes to helping your Game. Sure, people have impacted my Game and I've done the same for them. And yes, at some level, I could be helpful (and vice versa). But, the quicker you understand that the journey from AFC to PUA is one in which you have to haul pretty much alone the quicker you'll realize that we don't have anything to teach you that you can't learn on your own.
Finally, I'll finish on a more practical note. When I first began in the Community, I read a few books, watched a few DVDs then started hitting up bars near my house. I was virtually always alone and I got used to it. I made a ton of progress doing things this way, then I hit a plateau. At the time, I thought I should join a local lair in an effort to get better or get over the hump. Then, I started at the Dallas Meetup board. The quality and skill level there was, well, lacking. But, I found 2 regular wings. Both of which were, well, lacking. They taught me valuable lessons, but they were lessons that 1) I would have learned eventually and 2) were lessons about myself more than them teaching me tactics that worked. Then, I joined the Dallas Lair. Here, I've met a lot of great guys, guys I conisder friends. But, as I interacted with them more I noticed that my Game started changing. They were having success doing things that I never tried, so I started to incorporate some of their stuff into my Game. The result? I regressed. I actually got worse. The reason was because I was no longer running my Game, but a hodgepodge of the Game that worked for other people. So, I had to try to find that mix that I had perfected before. Eventually it came back, not 100% though closer to 75%.
This is why I'm so adamant about figuring things out on your own. I believe that if it doesn't come from within, then you're going to be running Game that isn't a reflection of your inner person.
There is no formula, no right way. Maybe what you need is to hang out with a group of experienced guys. Maybe you need to find a small group of wings that are at or near your skill level and run with them exclusively. Maybe you need to run Game on your own and check in with the Lair once a month. I don't know.
Just keep in mind that you are the only one that can turn you into the best you possible. I'm a huge believer in ownership. You own how you feel about others, even if they don't reciprocate (sp?), you own how you interrpret what people say and do. You own your successes and failures. You own your Game. If you've run into a plateau, I'm sure it's because you're still doing the same things you've always done. You is a fluid concept. Sometimes you have change what you're doing. Watching other guys work isn't going to be nearly as helpful as you might think. Instead, it's going to cause you to mimic their successes and avoid their failures. When, maybe just maybe the technique they used to succeed would fail with you and the one that they failed with would work for you.
You'd be amazed how many answers you have, if you'd just ask yourself the right questions.
Having said all of that, I'm done with this topic for a while. I'll read it but I'm not sure I can articulate my message any further. Keep in mind, that I've said all I have precisely because I believe in each and everyone's abilities in the Dallas Community. Even if we've never met or if we don't get along, I still believe that you've got all the tools you need to put it all together.
See you in the scene.
I believe that watching others, while they're in big grops, in action is of very little value. Watching guys at different levels of skill and experience can be helpful but is still hard to internalize because you have to translate what you see them doing into principles that you can understand. The problem occurs in the translation, how do you translate principles you don't understand into ones you do?
So, you might ask why coaches are effective. It's simple really. They make you accountable, they kick you in the ass, and they tell you what to do. They give you structure. If you need that, then fine. Go for it. But, keep in mind that all they're doing is what I've been saying...which is basically that you have to quit being a pussy and just go do it.
I think one of the biggest distortions in the Community is that once you enter and you do the things you're supposed to do, then you should somehow become this amazing Casanova. This simply is not the case. We all are bounded by our respective realities. I posted something about sports the other day and the parallels to the Game. One more point to understand is that we're all bounded by our innate skill level. There are some things that simply will not change. You will probably not get any smarter or funnier or be able to run faster or jump higher or whatever. At some point, you simply reach your potential regardless of how hard you work or how much you want it. The great thing is that very few of us, myself included, can definitively say that I'm fully self-actualized. This is why you keep working and pushing. But, understand that you are here to be the best you that you can become.
I think it's better to surround yourself with a small group (read 2 - 3) of guys that are pretty much in the same place as you. Go out with them, and on your own. Keep reading, but don't make it obsessive. I think this type of structure will give you everything you need: 1) it gives you a group of guys that hold you accountable and that you grow with and have fun with, a support system 2) going on your own gives you an opportunity to find out who you really are without the support of your crew, this is when you begin to understand your assets and liablities 3) continuing to read will allow you to find those areas in your life when you got bad advice, just as Vector alluded to earlier.
What I'm really saying is that there is only one TopDog, Bull Run, grimm, playercool, Pictureperfect, Lion, Vector, etc. There is only one Gunner, Acuity, or JJE. I can't really teach you anything about yourself by allowing you to watch me, or anyone else, run a set. I can teach you about my Game, my personality, and what works for me. But, I'm of little to no use to you when it comes to helping your Game. Sure, people have impacted my Game and I've done the same for them. And yes, at some level, I could be helpful (and vice versa). But, the quicker you understand that the journey from AFC to PUA is one in which you have to haul pretty much alone the quicker you'll realize that we don't have anything to teach you that you can't learn on your own.
Finally, I'll finish on a more practical note. When I first began in the Community, I read a few books, watched a few DVDs then started hitting up bars near my house. I was virtually always alone and I got used to it. I made a ton of progress doing things this way, then I hit a plateau. At the time, I thought I should join a local lair in an effort to get better or get over the hump. Then, I started at the Dallas Meetup board. The quality and skill level there was, well, lacking. But, I found 2 regular wings. Both of which were, well, lacking. They taught me valuable lessons, but they were lessons that 1) I would have learned eventually and 2) were lessons about myself more than them teaching me tactics that worked. Then, I joined the Dallas Lair. Here, I've met a lot of great guys, guys I conisder friends. But, as I interacted with them more I noticed that my Game started changing. They were having success doing things that I never tried, so I started to incorporate some of their stuff into my Game. The result? I regressed. I actually got worse. The reason was because I was no longer running my Game, but a hodgepodge of the Game that worked for other people. So, I had to try to find that mix that I had perfected before. Eventually it came back, not 100% though closer to 75%.
This is why I'm so adamant about figuring things out on your own. I believe that if it doesn't come from within, then you're going to be running Game that isn't a reflection of your inner person.
There is no formula, no right way. Maybe what you need is to hang out with a group of experienced guys. Maybe you need to find a small group of wings that are at or near your skill level and run with them exclusively. Maybe you need to run Game on your own and check in with the Lair once a month. I don't know.
Just keep in mind that you are the only one that can turn you into the best you possible. I'm a huge believer in ownership. You own how you feel about others, even if they don't reciprocate (sp?), you own how you interrpret what people say and do. You own your successes and failures. You own your Game. If you've run into a plateau, I'm sure it's because you're still doing the same things you've always done. You is a fluid concept. Sometimes you have change what you're doing. Watching other guys work isn't going to be nearly as helpful as you might think. Instead, it's going to cause you to mimic their successes and avoid their failures. When, maybe just maybe the technique they used to succeed would fail with you and the one that they failed with would work for you.
You'd be amazed how many answers you have, if you'd just ask yourself the right questions.
Having said all of that, I'm done with this topic for a while. I'll read it but I'm not sure I can articulate my message any further. Keep in mind, that I've said all I have precisely because I believe in each and everyone's abilities in the Dallas Community. Even if we've never met or if we don't get along, I still believe that you've got all the tools you need to put it all together.
See you in the scene.
- Guest
by Guest » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:11 pm
hey guys..i love all this feedback! what my problem is right now is something that has been on this forum before...and thats me having the knowledge of a great PUA..but the experience of a AFC..which is formely called the infamous Keyboard Jockey...so thats where i stand and thats where i need to improve...to actually get myself out there....and i feel my first two sticking points i need to overcome is
1) getting in the right state before going out instead of compounding nervousness and anxiety in my mind to the point where there is practicaly a hive of butterflies in my chest and my head is about to explode
2)overcoming AA..plain and simple
there are plenty more sticking points but these are the first two i need to work out...as far as getting help in the community...yes watching people doing open and hook is something i need to see but i just need to see it once or twice just so i can see how things work in real time...im not gunna rely on other people for my success..i just want to see it acouple times just to get the feel...lol thats funny you mentioned photography cause i took a photo I class last semester and know all bout that shit...anyways its a new year...last year sucked dirty monkey balls...so lets ssee if i can progress from the inner game rockbottom i once was at and still not far from...
1) getting in the right state before going out instead of compounding nervousness and anxiety in my mind to the point where there is practicaly a hive of butterflies in my chest and my head is about to explode
2)overcoming AA..plain and simple
there are plenty more sticking points but these are the first two i need to work out...as far as getting help in the community...yes watching people doing open and hook is something i need to see but i just need to see it once or twice just so i can see how things work in real time...im not gunna rely on other people for my success..i just want to see it acouple times just to get the feel...lol thats funny you mentioned photography cause i took a photo I class last semester and know all bout that shit...anyways its a new year...last year sucked dirty monkey balls...so lets ssee if i can progress from the inner game rockbottom i once was at and still not far from...
- Guest
by Guest » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:39 pm
BR, I agree with that pretty much 100%.
I would also add that there are two very distinct things going on when learning through others. Like in football, you can watch videos of other teams playing, or you can watch videos of yourself playing. The kinds of things you learn from the two are very different, almost opposites.
Watching others, you can get new ideas for things to try, and see if they work for you. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Maybe it only works because they have a particularly fast guy on their team. Or they are unusually funny or good looking.
Watching videos of yourself, you learn specifically what you do well, and specifically what you may want to change. The things you do well, you amplify. The things that don't work out, you modify.
Very roughly speaking, watching others broadens possibilities. Watching yourself narrows to what works for you.
I would also add that there are two very distinct things going on when learning through others. Like in football, you can watch videos of other teams playing, or you can watch videos of yourself playing. The kinds of things you learn from the two are very different, almost opposites.
Watching others, you can get new ideas for things to try, and see if they work for you. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Maybe it only works because they have a particularly fast guy on their team. Or they are unusually funny or good looking.
Watching videos of yourself, you learn specifically what you do well, and specifically what you may want to change. The things you do well, you amplify. The things that don't work out, you modify.
Very roughly speaking, watching others broadens possibilities. Watching yourself narrows to what works for you.
- Guest
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