Nice guys finish last? (repost:thanks to Matrix Method)

[Guest]

Ode to the Nice Guys
This rant was written for the Wharton Undergraduate Journal

This is a tribute to the nice guys. The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends, that endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are, while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs, those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores. This is in honor of the guys that obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy their female friends are at the appropriate moment, because they know most girls need that litany of support. This is in honor of the guys with open minds, with laid-back attitudes, with honest concern. This is in honor of the guys who respect a girl’s every facet, from her privacy to her theology to her clothing style.

This is for the guys who escort their drunk, bewildered female friends back from parties and never take advantage once they’re at her door, for the guys who accompany girls to bars as buffers against the rest of the creepy male population, for the guys who know a girl is fishing for compliments but give them out anyway, for the guys who always play by the rules in a game where the rules favor cheaters, for the guys who are accredited as boyfriend material but somehow don’t end up being boyfriends, for all the nice guys who are overlooked, underestimated, and unappreciated, for all the nice guys who are manipulated, misled, and unjustly abandoned, this is for you.

This is for that time she left 40 urgent messages on your cell phone, and when you called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner. And even though you thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, you assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it. This is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor. This is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.

The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should. And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can’t. From what I have observed on campus and what I have learned from talking to friends at other schools and in the workplace, the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches. Many of them claim they just want to date a nice guy, but when presented with such a specimen, they say irrational, confusing things such as “oh, he’s too nice to date” or “he would be a good boyfriend but he’s not for me” or “he already puts up with so much from me, I couldn’t possibly ask him out!” or the most frustrating of all: “no, it would ruin our friendship.” Yet, they continue to lament the lack of datable men in the world, and they expect their too-nice-to-date male friends to sympathize and apologize for the men that are jerks. Sorry, guys, girls like that are beyond my ability to fathom. I can’t figure out why the connection breaks down between what they say (I want a nice guy!) and what they do (I’m going to sleep with this complete ass now!). But one thing I can do, is say that the nice-guy-finishes-last phenomenon doesn’t last forever. There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier, finding the ones that are single.

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all the nice guys. You know who you are, and I know you’re sick of hearing yourself described as ubiquitously nice. But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile. For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations where you are the faceless, nameless hero, my accolades, my acknowledgement, and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming.

[Guest]

I was this guy for a long time.

[Guest]

[quote1215767713=El Fenix]There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier, finding the ones that are single.
[/quote1215767713]

Tom Leykis puts that a different way. He says the hot babes keep on going after the Tools who can lay pipe real well until their looks fade and they have a few kids from trying to trap and "Make them respectable." Then they go for the Poindexter nice guys who have been saving their money and still idolize them.

There is truth to that. I just think it's an awfully negative way of looking at it. That being said, I always thought I was one of the nice guys, as it turns out in retrospect I was really one of the tools who could lay pipe. I just wish I had been more aware of that fact at the time.

[Guest]

[quote1215786449=El Fenix]You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming.
[/quote1215786449]

There is absolute truth in the first part...

But, their vindication will never come because they simply refuse to take control of a situation with women. That's why nice guys finish last, because they don't take a woman and lead her. Instead, they're waiting to be led by her. Women don't respect men that don't take control.

I went to an apartment opening last night, which by the way are always awesome, and I met a girl with a nice boy-friend.

She talked about how wonderful he is, how he goes out of his way for her all the time, how he's so sweet and kind and NICE!

Me: So, how's that working out for you?
Her: What, what do you mean?
Me: Do you ever get sick of him being so nice all the time?
Her: What? Why would you ever get sick of someone being nice all the time? (She directed this question to herself more than to me)
Me: I don't know, you tell me...
Her: Yeah, I guess I do. Sometimes I wish he would be more forceful.
Me: Girls like nice guys, but they don't respect them. And, women have to respect their man.

Then I followed up with my Strong, Sexual Man routine. Basically I tell them what traits they really want in a man, none of which are those of the nice guy. Basically, I describe an asshole or tool or douchebag or whatever it is that everyone else calls them.

Then, I went to the bar and got two drinks. I didn't bother to ask her what she wanted, this was my sutble way of following up my words with action...and I wasn't worried about wasting a drink cause it was free.

I knew she had a boyfriend but we ended up going up to her unit anyway. The nice guy boyfriend was probably sitting at home, by himself, thinking about how lucky he is to have her. I feel bad for the guy and shouldn't have nailed his girlfriend but if it wasn't me someone would have fucked her that night. Especially once I got her buying temperature up.

[Guest]

I was always a nice guy too, and I still am. I give compliments, do favors, hold doors open, etc. However, there is one way in which I'm different. I expect more from other people. I expect women to have self respect and to respect me.

That rant is fine on the surface, but when you read between the lines, the guy is saying, "I will give a woman the moon and the stars, and it's alright if she treats me like garbage because I don't hold her to a very high standard." That's not a nice guy, that's a complete tool! When a guy like that finally does find a woman who's ready to SETTLE down with a nice guy, he usually ends up an indentured servant. She owns him. He jokingly calls her "the boss." He asks her permission before buying a new TV. When his friends ask him to go out for a few beers, he says, "I'll ask my wife what our plans are this weekend." And they have boring, routine sex WHEN SHE WANTS IT. He never grabs her by the hair, pulls her skirt up, and bends her over the kitchen counter. He thinks he's being nice. He thinks he's giving her what all women want. He is so very wrong.

[Guest]

Yeah so true... I'm still trying to shake this guy he's hard to get rid of when he's been you for so long!! But looking at him through the rose colored glasses of the PUA mindset and even reading this article now... it's easy to see how the nice guy deserves it... look at the shit he puts up with from women... he really does deserve more respect, but in this world unfortunately if you let people use you, that's generally what they will end up doing. Nice guys are guys women use for friendship and for what they can get out of them... but not generally for sex or relationships.

I'm raising my glass to the assholes -- without them I would've never realized the nice guy track was the totally wrong one. And the assholes are the guys most of the naturals and PUAs originally picked up their moves from... so here's to the asshole!!! I salute you!

[Guest]

Honestly,
I'm somewhere in between. Every girl I've met when we have been out sarging, has been a total throwaway. I mean, I was going through my phone the other day, and texting a few girls, and not really caring whether they responded or not, cause they are interchangable and replaceable.
I think for a long time, even still, I tend to see women as better than they are. In reality, many of them are dirty little ho's.

Not all women are like that though. Thats the type I really want.

[Guest]

Bullrun,

I've never seduced a married one yet, at least not that I know about, but I want to.

Do you find that this is the best way to seduce the married ones and the girlfriends? Ask them open questions about their boyfriends/husbands, fish what it is that they don't like about them out, expose it, and then show them what they're missing? Most of the married women are missing affection and sex, so kino escalation shouldn't be too hard. I guess they instantly rationalize their poor behavior because her man should be doing this and he's not, so it's "ok" to fuck some random guy.

I'm KICKING myself right now. I just blew a golden opportunity with an asian chick in my house this morning. She's living with her fiance, and all I had to do was take a chance and I could be fucking her right now. She was not exactly moving away from my kino escalation...I should have grabbed her and kissed and I'd probably be fucking some poor bastard's fiance right now!!! I was too NICE damn it!!!

[Guest]

If you remain that Nice Guy and get Married... she will Cheat on you and Fk you over and blame you and take MOre than Half your stuff.

[Guest]

[quote1215793241=Alphagame]
Bullrun,

I've never seduced a married one yet, at least not that I know about, but I want to.

Do you find that this is the best way to seduce the married ones and the girlfriends? Ask them open questions about their boyfriends/husbands, fish what it is that they don't like about them out, expose it, and then show them what they're missing? Most of the married women are missing affection and sex, so kino escalation shouldn't be too hard. I guess they instantly rationalize their poor behavior because her man should be doing this and he's not, so it's "ok" to fuck some random guy.[/quote1215793241]

Pulling married or involved women in a technique all in itself. You have to be really good at reading people, which you should be anyway if you're in the Game. Anyway, you basically nailed the formula. With the exceptions of fishing and kino. I don't ever fish or kino, they come off as needy and creepy to someone that has just said they are taken.

You can't be too personal in your boyfriend destroyers. Don't make it about him so much as making it about the type of person he represents. A lot of times all you have to do is ask them a question...they'll do the destroying themselves.

Ever see Fight Club? Remember that scene when Ed Norton's character meets Brad Pitt's character for the first time. They're on the plane and Ed says something clever:

Brad: Oh I get it. Very clever.
Ed: Smiles
Brad: How's that working for you?
Ed: What?
Brad: Being clever.
Ed: Great
Brad: Well keep it up then.

Then, Brad gets up to leave letting Ed ponder the simple, unassuming question.

That's how you do it!

That was exactly the formula that I used last night, although I added a little more dialogue last night with my Strong, Sexual Man routine. Still though the effect was the same. What do you think she was thinking about while I was getting us some drinks?

I've thought a lot about the ones that I was successful in closing and here's pretty much the formula as I see it:

-Remain calm and unfazed when she says she has a boyfriend, you probably already know if she's married
-I usually don't ever talk about him, I basically ignore his existence
-She'll bring him up if he REALLY exists, she'll talk about him in some fashion
-This is the point where you have to really analyize what she's saying, also be sure to look in her eyes at some point while you're surveying her BL. If her eyes light up, you are done. If they don't, you are in. Call it an IOI if you will.
-Usually, I say he sounds like a nice guy. They'll ALWAYS respond with he is. Again, focus on how she says this. If she's speaking with emotion then you're probably done, if she's speaking flatly then you're still in.
-This is where I float the "how's that working out for you" line. Then, I follow it up with the girls don't respect nice guys line and then my Strong, Sexual Man routine. Then, I'll usually leave for a minute without announcing where I'm going or what I'm doing...to get a drink, use the restroom, say hi to a friend, you get the idea.
-Once you come back she'll more than likely have torn her boyfriend down. And she'll have raised her own buying temperature.
-From this point on it's very important to keep her emontional, don't let her think about things. You've got to be strong and powerful and lead her. You've got to get her to feel things...just like in any normal pickup.
-Don't ever talk about the boyfriend again. Also I suspect it's best to get her back to your place so she isn't confronted with anything that might remind her of him but I can't really confirm that because we went up to her apartment last night.

Of course all this only works if you know she's married. I've bedded women before that didn't tell me they were involved until later. I suspect that a few of my one night stands were the same way as well, but I didn't keep in touch, neither did they, so I'll never really know for sure.