3x # Close last weekend - Good for day2?

[Guest]

I've learned from experience...and let me just say that KARMA is a bitch.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Rhody;33686]Good stuff.

One thing I noticed, and this happens a lot, is that she didn't tell you that she had a boyfriend, but her friend did. Why wouldn't she tell you that? Think about it.

Husband is one thing, but boyfriend is something entirely different. I agree in principal with BR. I defer to him, but offer another perspective, which may be useful.

The term "boyfriend" is so vague. Attractive women always have some guy, or several, hanging around. You never know what that word means, especially with younger women. Sometimes it's a long distance relationship. Sometimes he's really into her and she's too compassionate to hurt him so she goes along with it (if another guy sweeps her off her feet and that hurts him, then that's not her fault, it's the other guy's fault). Sometimes it's an on-again-off-again affair that doesn't mean much. Sometimes she's with him by default and just looking for something better (younger women treat relationships like employment, you don't quit unless you have something else lined up). Sometimes he's an abusive dickhead (in which case I would stay away because there may be something about her personality that causes her to be attracted to abuse and chaos). And sometimes he meets all of her core values and it's something you don't want to get in the way of.

So another perspective is to keep up with the interaction until you learn what the word "boyfriend" means to her.[/QUOTE]


Good point and perspective. You're totally right in your assessment that boyfriend may mean any number of things. And, since her friend said it I think it's legit to doubt the seriousness of the relationship. I mean it did come from her friend, the friend has no idea of how important, or conversely not, that relationship is to HB Cowgirl.

I suppose I'm coming from the perspective of understanding the types of men that simply don't have any regard about the relationship a woman may or may not have with another man. I've been the other guy many times and I think it's fair to say that I aided in delivering the 'final blow' to many relationships that were already on the brink.

The point is that guys that have no respect or regard for the relationship a woman has with another man are simply devoid of any virtuousness. I view them as trash. Yes, at one point in my life I was in that category as well.

In my opinion, men that piss all over a woman's relationship with another man possess a deep seated character flaw that should be avoided at all costs. Don't put yourself in that class of people.

Having said that, Rhody's point is valid and I agree that it would not be inappropriate to do a little investigative work to see what the depth of her relationship with him may be. Personally, I'd just next her and move on. If the relationship isn't that important to her she'll pursue you.

There are too many beautiful, willing women in the world for you to get caught up in some bullshit drama.

[Guest]

I definitely would have escalated the interaction further if she didn't have a bf. We went to taco c in a group. You make a very valid point about what bf means. In the future I'll figure out what they mean by it so I can have a better understanding of the situation.
It turns out that she really does have a boyfriend. So I won't have any more chances with her in the near future. I'm not looking to have a girl cheat on her bf. I'd feel horrible and guilty if I knowingly did so. I also wouldn't want her to have bad feelings afterwards because of an impulse.
I am nexting her. I should have provided more info in my first post but I had already decided not to pursue

I'm going to focus on the other two now. Will be going for rapport and connection

[Guest]

[QUOTE=sooners123;33689]I definitely would have escalated the interaction further if she didn't have a bf. We went to taco c in a group. You make a very valid point about what bf means. In the future I'll figure out what they mean by it so I can have a better understanding of the situation.
It turns out that she really does have a boyfriend. So I won't have any more chances with her in the near future. I'm not looking to have a girl cheat on her bf. I'd feel horrible and guilty if I knowingly did so. I also wouldn't want her to have bad feelings afterwards because of an impulse.
I am nexting her. I should have provided more info in my first post but I had already decided not to pursue

I'm going to focus on the other two now. Will be going for rapport and connection[/QUOTE]

Despite the perspective I presented above, I totally respect your decision to not pursue her. That shows integrity, and it shows that you are a man with options.

The reason I presented that perspective is because I deduced that you are relatively young, because the HBAsian chick was studying. So you are probably gaming women who are in college. When a 20-year-old woman says she has a boyfriend, it means something completely different from when a 35-year-old woman says she has a boyfriend. Hey, my son is 12 and in the 6th grade. He told me he has a girlfriend. I was like, what does that mean? I think it means they sit next to each other in math class because he never talks about her. So it's all relative.

I wouldn't completely next her, because she could be a gateway to other single women. For example, you could text her, "going to be at X place tonight you should come and bring your single girlfriends."

[Guest]

I really am glad you mentioned the other perspective. Boyfriend meaning something different was never a possibility until you mentioned it. It makes a lot of sense and now I have more flexibility in my responses.
If I had found out that "boyfriend" meant "she has a guy that buys her shit in a platonic relationship", then I would go for it. But, unfortunately, it seems like she is in real relationship

I have had a couple of ljbf that I am trying to get to introduce me to their friends. Hasn't worked out that well though. It may be because I haven't built enough comfort or something

[Guest]

A little update from this weekend. Friday night, I was with HB8 blue eyes (from [url]http://www.dallaslair.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5053[/url]). I'll write some stuff about what happened with blue eyes on that post later.
HB8 Asian texted me while I was out with blue eyes.

I've been trying to build more comfort with her. Which, at this point in time, means letting the qualities of my AFC days come out. However...I have a feeling that I didn't do it right until the very end. Let me know what you think!

Friday
------------------
(7:00pm) Her: Yo
Me: Heya
Her: Wats up?
Me: Heading to some vegan place
(7:36pm) Her: Ah, sounds fun
Me: I'm a huge meat eater. Just wanted to try it. What're you doing?
Her: I'm waiting for my sister's concert to start
Me: Cool, that's sweet of you to support her
(8:00pm) Her: Yes im sweet like that.
(8:34pm) Me: Yeah really. So what kinda concert is it?
Her: Orchestra rock concert with
(9:27pm) Me: Ah, cool. I'll have to google it or something. You are really close to your sister!
Her: Yes i try to be close to all my siblings.
(11:08pm) Me: That's rare these days. What's your favorite way to bond with them?

Saturday
-------------------------
(1:24am) Her: Well i enjoy every moment with them. We go eat, amusement parks, bake and cook together, swimming, go to the park, picnics, museums, ice cream, movies, ...
(5:25pm) Her: How was the vegan restaurant yesterday?
(6:26pm) Me: I was gonna msg you last night at 3am. It's awesome how you enjoy every moment with your family! I want to learn how to cook!
Me: What kind of stuff do you cook and bake? And the vegan stuff was pretty good. But nothing can beat a fat juicy steak!
(7:30pm) Her: I just learned how to bake cookies and chicken lasagna. I know how to make one viet dish. Everything from scratch
(8:04pm) Me: I love a girl that can cook :-) I can only make scrambled eggs and almost spaghetti. What are you gonna make me?
(9:27pm) Her: Lol
Her: You would have to earn it
(9:55pm) Me: Haha. It depends on what you make me :-) If yours is good I'll make you my famous scrambled eggs!
(10:56pm) Me: It's soooo cold. Even next the fire. But the smores are delicious!
Her: Haha i forgot you were camping. Smores are yummy! Where are you camping at?
(11:22pm) Me: In Austin. Soo tired. Slept at 3 and woke up at 7. Hope my sleeping bag is warm tonight. What are you cooking for me again? :-)
Her: Never said i was
(11:53pm) Me: Hmm, that's disappointing. A?nd here I was considered making you my famous eggs. You can practice
Her: How cold is it out there?
Me: 50 degrees. Have you ever camped?
Her: Only once
Me: Dd you like it? I'm having a great time! You can actually see the stars out here. Trying to find the big dipper.

Sunday
---------------------
(12:36am) Her: I did. Watching the stars is fun
Me: Yeah it is! Oh yeah how was the concert?
Her: It was good. I was so tired afterwards.
Me: Hey do you play any instruments?
Me: You kinda look like a violin type of girl
Her: No, i wish i did though
Her: My sis plays the violin. I like the piano
Me: Aww it's ok. At least you claim you can cook :-)
Me: I love the piano! I think it's amazing the range of emotion you can capture with the piano. I have a beautiful piece music for to listen to you
Her: Im learning to cook for myself and those special to me. I am really not the cooking type so if i was to cook for someone that means that person means alot to me
Her: What is it? I know im old but when i get a chance imma try to learn
(1:13am) Me: I like a challenge! And I love to eat!
Me: I'll look up the piece I really like. It's saved on my comp. Will be back tomorrow night
Her: I like to eat too. I like it especially when i get to try something i've never had.


There's more...but gotta go to work. Will finish the post from my phone later.

[Guest]

No offense man, but this is a really boring conversation. I mean, it's hard to read I can't imagine how hard it is to have participated in it. Understand, that I don't think you're boring, I just think you didn't escalate this conversation or make it fun and casual.

We all have different styles, sure, yours may be one in which you try to get the girl to feel as if you care about her and really know and understand her. Being sincere and curious about her CAN work, but I don't necessarily think it's what most girls would want from a man.

Texting is supposed to be casual. You aren't supposed to get to know each other via text.

Looking at your text thread, I noticed something. At first you she was asking you roughly the same number of questions that you asked her. Near the end you went off the rails a bit. You asked more questions and she asked virtually none. In total, the ratio of your questions to her and hers to you was 2:1. You asked 10, she asked 5.

More than that though, you'll notice that the questions you asked had more teeth and substance. Her, on the other hand, were very superficial and appear to be more of a cordial thing than otherwise.

I got the distinct feeling that you were trying to really 'force' that conversation. There were a handful of places where you should have just cut the thread and started over in a couple of days. Instead, you plowed ahead and the energy of the conversation went no where.

Remember, conversations are two way. If you're not able to coax the energy level out of her that you need to, then cut the thread, walk away for a while, then try it again.

I know you said that you're focusing more on building comfort. But, the comfort stage involves more than just being comfortable with someone. You can be comfortable with tons of people so it doesn't really differentiate your from the masses too much.

The other part to the comfort stage is rapport.

From Wiki:

[B]"Rapport[/B] is one of the most important features or characteristics of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_communication"]unconscious human interaction[/URL]. It is commonality of perspective: being "in sync" with, or being "on the same wavelength" as the person with whom you are talking. There are a number of techniques that are supposed to be beneficial in building rapport such as: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching"]matching[/URL] your [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_language"]body language[/URL] (ie, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posture"]posture[/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesture"]gesture[/URL], and so forth); maintaining [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact"]eye contact[/URL]; and matching [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath"]breathing[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm"]rhythm[/URL]."

Rapport, generally speaking, is only really created in person. Sure, non-verbal communication is important but so are things like common experiences or inside jokes. Maybe a movie that you both enjoy and can commonly quote (for me it's always quotes from Anchorman). It doesn't take much to build rapport, but it's difficult to find someone with a similar perspective. Or someone that's willing to adopt yours.

Also, I think you've still got a bit of a too structured view of comfort and seduction. If you break PU into four broad stages, as done by Mystery and what I generally believe is the 'road map,' you've got attraction, comfort, rapport, and seduction (Mystery actually lumps comfort and rapport together, but I think rapport is a fundamental differentiation point that is uber powerful and should be viewed as a higher level of comfort so much so as to be a step beyond comfort).

Here's my definition of each:

Attraction -- Occurs almost instantaneously, many times it's based purely on her physical attraction to you. This stage last, at tops, like 60 seconds.

Comfort -- The point where she no longer views you as a stranger. Instead, you're that funny guy, cute guy, interesting guy, Bull Run, whatever. You now have some kind of identity to HER. Now, she'll start opening up to you as if you are no longer a random person.

Rapport -- Sometimes never happens. But, it's when the two of you are on the same level. A few inside jokes, a few common experiences, etc. This is what creates rapport.

Seduction -- This is when the interaction gets sexual in a REAL way. Before, you both may have joked about it but now it's serious. Kissing, petting, touching, or talking about sex (in a serious way). I've even had chicks show me naked pics of themselves on their camera phones.

Too often guys think of each stage as a level, it's linear and instantaneous. It's kind of like a light switch. When a girl is attracted, the light switch turns from 'off' to 'on.' When she's comfortable, the comfort switch turns from 'off' to 'on.' When she's ready for sex, the seduction switch turns from 'off' to 'on.' But, this isn't right AT ALL. Instead, think of PU as a dimmer switch.

The only point at which you turn anything 'on' is at attraction. That is almost always instantaneous (by that I mean within the first 30 to 60 seconds, sometimes immediately if they find you physically attractive). Once you've clicked on the dimmer switch, then you start turning the knob so that the light gets brighter and brighter. There really aren't stages necessarily. And, going from one stage to the next is so subtle as to be almost impossible to identify. Maybe in hindsight will you discover when you went from attraction to comfort and from comfort to seduction, but generally speaking, when you're in the middle of the PU you don't ever know what stage you're really in. You just know if things are going well and progressing, which is really the only feedback you'll ever get. The line between each stage is simply too dynamic and ambiguous to see a definitive demarcation point.

So, back to the dimmer switch analogy. Your job is to slowly turn that dimmer to get the light as bright as possible. A woman's job is to decide how much resistance to give you and when to coax you a little further. So, as you start turning up the light, understand that you can also reverse coarse and dim the light again. Then, since you've already turned it up to a certain point, you can easily go right back to that 'brightness' level on the dimmer switch.

This is how I think of push and pull. You turn the knob up, then dim it again. You don't ever turn anything 'off' you just turn it up or down. Remember you're working in levels of degrees here, not checkpoints.

I think you've misinterpreted what Smirks and I have been saying about comfort, which is more our fault than yours. What we're saying, and anyone else that advised that you work on comfort, is not that you get to comfort and stop turning the knob. Keep trying to turn the knob!!! But, understand that you can go back to comfort once you've hit rapport OR seduction. That's what I think of as push and pull, you turn the dial up then when she resists or does something you're not crazy about you turn the dial down.

You are on the offensive, she is on the defensive. If you stop trying to turn the knob, then she's going to start really pushing back on you. Then, the tables have turned. She is now on the offensive while you bunker down and go on the defensive to try to hold onto the ground that you've gained. When this shift occurs, you're almost always toast. You've got to keep pushing the interaction, keep turning the dial.

When I say I fight to stay in comfort what I means is that I push the dial still, then turn it back to comfort. Then push it back up to seduction, then back to rapport. Then down to comfort, then shoot up to seduction. Back and forth, back and forth.

The reason you do this is because you want her to have some level of confusion as to what you're doing and where this interaction is and where it's going. This causes her to lower her defenses a bit and makes it easier for you to turn the dial up even further. The goal is for her to be having such a good time and to be so thrown off-balance as to not know what's happening until it's too late for her to push back or offer you resistance.

One of the recurring themes of the feedback I've gotten from women that I've successfully seduced is this confusion. Many times, either at the end of the night or the next day her friends will ask her what that was all about with me. Their answer is almost always "I have no idea, but he better call me OR it was fun."

As for specific feedback to your thread, I'd say you had a golden opportunity to better use the smores conversation.

Her: Haha i forgot you were camping. Smores are yummy! Where are you camping at?
You: Smores are yummy! I'm going to take you camping just so we can feed each other smores and gaze at the stars. Wait...I only have one tent and I don't trust you to sleep so closely to me...I'm not a piece of meat you know, I need comfort and rapport before I put out ;)

You're firmly in comfort with her, but that doesn't mean that you should stop trying to push the interaction. She held that thread with you for so long for a reason. She wanted you to escalate! Near the end, she got tired and frustrated with the platonic-get-to-know you thread you two had and wanted you to ante up and get to a this-conversation-is-getting-hot thread. That's why she seemed to get short and less inquisitive at the end.

[Guest]

Here is the rest if the texts I've had till now. The par I think did right is the steakhouse part. A lot of the points you made make sense to me. I felt like it wasn't very fun, too. I've read it. Need to process it a little and will post later tonight. Posting from phone is slow

*(3:00pm)
Me: Yep and I've never tried your cooking!* I have you down as "Multi culti". I remember you saying you try many types of food.* I tried vegan two days ago :-)
(4:53pm)
Her: Haha.* I actually have never been to a vegan restaurant
Her: What's your favorite steal restaurant?
Her: Steak*
(5:47pm)
Me: ooohh I really like tlc.* I have good memories there
Her: Where is tlc?
(6:07pm)
Me: Ohhh texas land and cattle.* But actually Texas road house is my fav
Her: Texas road house isn't bad
Me: I eat there at road house with my family all the time.* It's the only time we eat together nowadays
Her: Prices are pretty decent for steak too
Her: In oklahoma?
Me: Yeah. We have Texas road house there.* It's really funny! My mom loves sweet potatoes.* So I always ask her if she wants mine
Me: She always acts like she doesn't. But you can tell she does.* She always looks giddy.* So I order it the way she likes it
Her: Aww, how sweet.* Are you tired from camping?
Me: When I givei t to her, she always brightens up and looks so happy!
Her: Its good to be observant.* People sometime dont tell you straight what they want
(6:40pm)
Me: Yeah :-) I am learning womanese.* I am learning to read between the lines!* A little tired I'm car pooling back to Dallas
Her: Lol.* Are you taking a course or reading a book?
(7:00pm)
Me: Nope, lol.* Just through observation
Me: Learning a lot of interesting things from you too :-)
Her: Haha this is so funny.* Im glad you told me that.* It made my day :-)
(7:58pm)
Me: Haha I'm glad I made your day!* It's a taste of what's to come :-)
Me: A/w back at my apt.* Gonna take a relaxing shower now!* I'll send you that piano pice later
Her: Alright

Monday
-------------------
(10am)
Me: Ah I passed out last night.* A/w the piano thing.* Search for "merry christmas mr lawrence" on YouTube.* He plays it live with violin and chello.
Me: Close your eyes and listen to it -_-* It makes me picture happy moments in my life
(11:35am)
Her:* I'll check that out when i get home from school.* Do you have this whole week off?
(3:50pm)
Her: Are you good at making website?

[Guest]

So I have reread your post a couple of times and it's making more and more sense. She has initiated the text many times, and most of the time I'm asking boring questions or trying for deep rapport. I do admit that I am trying o get to the next level asap.

I still did view the interaction in a linear way. I distinctly remember myself saying "you're in comfort now. Bond with her". I really like your analogy of the dimmer switch. After reading your post, I realized that I did it subconciously last weekend, and I was amazed at the results. I carpooled with ag6 horny wife. I wasn't gaming her or anything but I kept my personality the same (playfun, fun). I never once thought about seduction, so the "stages" did not apply. But, our interaction dd definitely go from attraction to comfort to rapport and back. We had a lot of inside jokes and similarities. She told me really personal stories and info about herself. We were able to bond since I wasn't looking at stages, just keeping the interaction fun while building rapport. A/w she now considers me a really close friend. She also told me that I'm a great fun guy, and she would want to date me if she was single which. From that point on, it was kind of awkward for me so I acted like I was sleeping for an hour. Not into married chicks

anyways, with hb8 Asian. Is this still salvageable? she does still initiate te texting for the most part. In my texts, I did try to have a *little* fun (ie the cooking for me, etc). It seems like she is pretty unresponsive and low energy. It's kinda boring, but I feel like a lot of it is due to my communication with her

[Guest]

[QUOTE=sooners123;33765]

anyways, with hb8 Asian. Is this still salvageable? she does still initiate te texting for the most part. In my texts, I did try to have a *little* fun (ie the cooking for me, etc). It seems like she is pretty unresponsive and low energy. It's kinda boring, but I feel like a lot of it is due to my communication with her[/QUOTE]

Do what you want with this girl but I got the same feeling. She sounds like she would be boring and bland.

It also sounds like you are going to have to put in a shit load of work with her.

My advice would be use her as an experiment. IF you want to do something with this girl go 100% direct on her and see what happens.

Just text her and start a random conversation with her and then tell her you are taking her out x day. See how she responds. At this point who gives a shit if she blows you off. And who knows maybe she will turn out to be a freak in bed...but I highly doubt it.

When you start getting good at game and start number closing a billion girls it is inevitable, you are going to come across girls like these. You will soon realize that you can meet so many girls, that these girls are hardly worth your effort and energy. Unless you just like a challenge and hate no for an answer your time is better served elsewhere.