Learn from My Mistakes

[Guest]

I have been on several dates recently from eharmony. There was one in particular on Saturday where I was really off my game. Since mistakes are opportunities to learn, I thought I would provide some analysis of my mistakes so others could learn from them too.

[B]1. Day Time vs. Night Time[/B]
[I]What I did:[/I]
I scheduled this date for Saturday in the day time for several reasons. One is that she hasn't earned a weekend night yet. Another is that I am a single parent, and weekend nights can require some planning to get a babysitter. Also, my plan was to take her to the Bishop Arts District where there are many shops and restaurants. My thinking was that going from a cool soda shop to an art gallery to a vintage clothing store to a cafe would create a time distortion. This is more of a day time thing to do when all the stores, including the art gallery, are open.
[I]What went wrong:[/I]
Day time dates have more of a platonic feel to them. Public displays of affection are even more out in the open. For example, I stopped her when we were walking down the street and kissed her. She said something about being in public and how a real kiss happens in private. It wasn't a hint; she was telling me that she was self conscious. The strange thing is that there was nobody around. Absolutely nobody saw us. But we were out in the open in broad daylight. If I did the same thing in a dark bar, even if we were surrounded by people, it would have been completely different. Day time dates take on more of a friend/boyfriend dynamic than a sexual dynamic.
[I]What I would do differently[/I]:
It would have been better to keep it light and fun and plant the seeds for a night time meeting rather than push things. Alternatively, I could have planned the date for later in the evening.

[B]2. Reward Her on Her High Points[/B]
[I]What I did:[/I]
Staying on the topic of the kiss, I did it when I was inspired to do it. I was pulling her into a cafe, and she didn't want to go in because there were deserts in there to tempt her. I teased her a little bit and we laughed. I kissed her while we were laughing.
[I]What went wrong:[/I]
From her perspective, the kiss came from out of the blue for no reason. Sometimes that can be good. But it is much better if she knows she did something to earn it. Kissing her when I made her laugh was doing it on MY high point, so it's like I rewarded myself.
[I]What I would do differently:[/I]
I could have said something like, "I really like how playful you are," right before I kissed her. Or, better yet, I could have said that, come close to kissing her, and then pulled away so she could earn more when we were in a more private setting.

[B]3. Structure Opportunities for a Venue Change[/B]
[I]What I did:[/I]
I was ok here, but not great. I told her first about going to the Bishop Arts District, and then added that we could get something to eat first. I drove us to the Twisted Root in Deep Ellum and then to the Bishop Arts District. Going from store to store is a very minor form of venue change.
[I]What went wrong:[/I]
Planning the whole day creates an expectation. Going from Twisted Root to Bishop Arts District was the plan, it wasn't like I found her in one venue and convinced her to go to another. There was no need to prepare her for every step. It's better to have it seem spontaneous and adventurous.
[I]What I would do differently:[/I]
Instead of planning the whole day with her, I would start with one venue. For example, I could have just made lunch plans, and then said, "I'm having a good time. There's this cool store I want to go to. Come with me." Or, instead of planning a date at the Bishop Arts District, I could have planned to go to the sushi restaurant and then suggested we go for a walk that just happens to hit all of those other places.

[B]4. Be Specific When You Compliment Her[/B]
[I]What I did:[/I]
When I picked her up, she told me that she went shopping for an outfit just for the date. She asked me if her outfit was good for our plans, and I said, "it's perfect." When we went to Twisted Root, I didn't have change for the meter. While I waited in line, she got change and fed the meter. I thanked her sincerely and gave her a hug. Then, when the food was ready, I got up to get the food. While I was gone, she took a paper towel and folded it very neatly and placed it on the table for me to use as a napkin. When I saw this, I said, "is this for me? You are so adorable."
[I]What went wrong:[/I]
It wasn't wrong, per se, but it could have been better. When complimenting a woman, be genuine and specific. It's also better if it's not about her appearance unless you're at the point where you're getting sexual. It's much better to compliment her on things that she chooses, things that make her uniquely her.
[I]What I would have done differently:[/I]
I would have said, "I like the clothes you picked out. You have a style that's fun and sexy, but also classy." I would have said, "I like that you went and fed the meter. You're considerate, which I find attractive." I would have said, "I think it's so adorable how you folded the paper towel into a napkin for me."

[B]5. Be in the Moment, Not in Your Head[/B]
[I]What I did:[/I]
I started to analyze the interaction and second guess myself. I started to ask myself whether she was initiating any kino, whether she was showing signs of attraction, whether I was talking too much or talking too little or expecting her to talk too much. I was really off my game, because I was thinking too much.
[I]What went wrong:[/I]
Being in my head caused me to not be in the moment. I started to force things. I even did a routine that I already did the first time I met her, which I never would have done if I was just having a natural conversation.
[I]What I would do differently:[/I]
I would trust my instincts. I would touch her because I'm comfortable around women. And not expect anything in return; she wasn't pushing me away, she was enjoying it. I would stop analyzing myself in the moment, and just BE in the moment.

When I dropped her off, it hit me that this date did not go well. Before I had a chance to get out of the car, she said, "give me a hug. You don't have to walk me in. Stay in your warm car" (it was 75 degrees outside). Ouch! But then she started making plans for the next time we go out. So all in all, it was not a train wreck, but it does look like it's not taking on the dynamic I was aiming for. I failed to direct the interaction where I wanted it to go. Anyway, it gave me an opportunity to share what I learned from the interaction.

[Guest]

It is when we fail that we often learn the most.

Folded napkin, meter change, outfit, etc. This girl was no doubt on her best behavior. Sounds to me like she was trying to impress which means she was into you at least to some degree.


When she said give me a hug and stay here that was a defense mechanism on her part. She didn't want to have the awkward walk to the door followed by the will he kiss me blah blah. The thing I don't like about this is that she took charge. I only point this out because I want you to think about this in greater detail. What can you do differently next time so you are always leading.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=playercool;35553]It is when we fail that we often learn the most.

Folded napkin, meter change, outfit, etc. This girl was no doubt on her best behavior. Sounds to me like she was trying to impress which means she was into you at least to some degree.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, it wasn't a train wreck. It was a "second date," the first one being a coffee date that went well. In fact, after the first date we parted and planned to get back together. Then it snowed like crazy and she chickened out because she didn't want to drive in the snow. So there was some positive momentum going into it.

[quote]When she said give me a hug and stay here that was a defense mechanism on her part. She didn't want to have the awkward walk to the door followed by the will he kiss me blah blah. The thing I don't like about this is that she took charge. I only point this out because I want you to think about this in greater detail. What can you do differently next time so you are always leading.[/quote]

You're right. That is actually something I would like to work on. I would like to always be leading. Make that #6: always be leading.

I don't want to think about it too much. There are many reasons why she could have done that. Maybe I blew myself out. Maybe she was really attracted to me and needed to assert some control, and what I perceived as unresponsiveness was actually her being in her head about what she was doing wrong. Maybe she was afraid I would see the dirty dishes piled up in her sink or the pentagram painted on her wall in blood. It's all mental masturbation.

The big picture is that it was not the outcome I wanted, so I will think about what I I can do differently to always be leading. Thanks. That's one I didn't consider.

[Guest]

Another thing I often wonder about eharmony girls and believe to be true.

I think people, more so women, go to eharmony looking for the "ONE". So their mindset is instantly geared towards a long term mate since the site finds the perfect person for you. So when the site tells her about you she instantly has a stronger connection and feelings for you.

This being the case I wonder if there is a differently game plan the guy should set from the beginning. Or has eharmony laid the seed for you and all you need to do is show up and not trip over yourself.

[Guest]

Rhody- you obviously know what you are doing. But don't overanalyze this stuff. Most of us are all guilty of that every now and then.

I gathered two things from reading this:

-You came across as a social engineer, very analytical, mechanical like. Did you fall into that mode during the date?

-Maybe this girl just wasn't giving you the warm fuzzy feedback you needed to create the dynamic you were looking for. No matter what you did, it would have been tough to steer this in the direction you wanted to go with somebody that didn't approve of a simple kiss in public nor one when you dropped her off.

You don't need some girl that tells you when its ok and not ok to kiss her. She needs to get comfortable with her self. She's got some issues there! And you might just be scratching the surface.

And just the fact that she said real kisses happen in private doesn't exactly promote "chemistry"! She should have kept her mouth shut. I would have subtracted 5pts from her scorecard and told her so. ;-)

Next time you go out with her don't kiss her at all!

[Guest]

[QUOTE=playercool;35557]Another thing I often wonder about eharmony girls and believe to be true.

[/QUOTE]

Do you think eharmony chics take a slower more conservative approach to dating?

[Guest]

The first thing that jumped out at me was the site you used to meet her:

eHarmony.

That, in and of itself, tells me so much about the type of girl she probably is. Now, everyone's experience is different, but in my experience, eHarmony has the most difficult chicks to deal with on the web once you get them in the person. I've concluded that the reason is that among all of the dating websites out there, eHarmony has positioned itself as the 'mate finder' website. 29 degrees on compatibility, deep emotional and personality connections...yeah, that stuff reeks of finding marriage material. That raises the stakes once you meet them in person. Add to that the ridiculously high cost and you can see that the stakes get even higher.

The women drawn to this website are looking for a hubby, pure and simple. In that context, I think that the reason you think you've screwed the pooch on this is because you came into the interaction thinking it was the pre-season, while she rolled in thinking it was the Super Bowl.

You can see this in the interaction:

-She bought an outfit specifically for the date. Some women do this normally, but they usually don't mention they did it on purpose. She not only went out of her way to buy a special outfit just for you, she also made it a point to tell you she did so (this alone would have been made me think very seriously about just nexting her).
-She made it a point to nuture you as evidenced by the napkin. Putting a napkin down for you is something that a girl does for her boyfriend or husband...not some guy she just met on their second date. Again, Super Bowl vs. pre-season mentality.
-Putting coins in the meter is on par with the previous example. Again, this is something you do for a boyfriend or husband. In her mind, she's thinking that you are, or could potentially be, a team...so, she's going to carry her weight. Most girls in a casual state of mind would never do that for you. It wouldn't occur to them to nuture you because you're just another dude...unless, of course, you've already fucked her. In which case you TELL her to get change for the meter ;)
-Kissing in public. I've never met a girl that didn't love it when a guy pulled them aside and kissed them in the 'heat of the moment.' Whenever that 'moment' happens to be...even if it's in the public, in the middle of the day. Early in a relationship, women love the public affection. It's when the relationship starts to mature that they think you should keep it at home. Again, I read this and think, it's not that she doesn't want you to kiss her, it's just that you don't make out with your boyfriend or husband in public...that's what you do with a guy you just want to fuck.

I know you think that you did some things wrong, which is probably true, but the interaction didn't go so well because you didn't really meet her expectations. She's looking for something more serious than casual. I think that's where you went wrong, I think you misjudged where her head was with respect to you. My guess is that she's probably really in to you but views you as 'marriage material,' not someone fun and exciting and casual to date.

If she was looking to just date around and have a good time, she would have saved some cash, sped up the process, and went on Match instead of eHarmony.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=UncleHOwie;35558]Rhody- you obviously know what you are doing. But don't overanalyze this stuff. Most of us are all guilty of that every now and then.

I gathered two things from reading this:

-You came across as a social engineer, very analytical, mechanical like. Did you fall into that mode during the date?[/QUOTE]

That's possible. I was having an off day, so I think I fell into a mechanical mode. My body language and speech were relaxed, but the content of what I did and said was too thought out, unnatural.

[quote]-Maybe this girl just wasn't giving you the warm fuzzy feedback you needed to create the dynamic you were looking for. No matter what you did, it would have been tough to steer this in the direction you wanted to go with somebody that didn't approve of a simple kiss in public nor one when you dropped her off.

You don't need some girl that tells you when its ok and not ok to kiss her. She needs to get comfortable with her self. She's got some issues there! And you might just be scratching the surface.

And just the fact that she said real kisses happen in private doesn't exactly promote "chemistry"! She should have kept her mouth shut. I would have subtracted 5pts from her scorecard and told her so. ;-)

Next time you go out with her don't kiss her at all![/quote]

That occurred to me too. There really are some boring girls out there, and many of them turn to online dating because they're not good at flirting in their everyday lives.

On the other hand, this is a chicken/egg question. Maybe the feedback was appropriate for what I brought to the interaction. Maybe if I was more challenging, playful, intense, or whatever, she would have thrown herself at me.

I was thinking about nexting her, but being in the community, I want to experiment to see if I can turn it around and pace the dynamic of the interaction toward what I want.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Bull Run;35560]The first thing that jumped out at me was the site you used to meet her:

eHarmony.

That, in and of itself, tells me so much about the type of girl she probably is. Now, everyone's experience is different, but in my experience, eHarmony has the most difficult chicks to deal with on the web once you get them in the person. I've concluded that the reason is that among all of the dating websites out there, eHarmony has positioned itself as the 'mate finder' website. 29 degrees on compatibility, deep emotional and personality connections...yeah, that stuff reeks of finding marriage material. That raises the stakes once you meet them in person. Add to that the ridiculously high cost and you can see that the stakes get even higher.

The women drawn to this website are looking for a hubby, pure and simple. In that context, I think that the reason you think you've screwed the pooch on this is because you came into the interaction thinking it was the pre-season, while she rolled in thinking it was the Super Bowl.

You can see this in the interaction:

-She bought an outfit specifically for the date. Some women do this normally, but they usually don't mention they did it on purpose. She not only went out of her way to buy a special outfit just for you, she also made it a point to tell you she did so (this alone would have been made me think very seriously about just nexting her).
-She made it a point to nuture you as evidenced by the napkin. Putting a napkin down for you is something that a girl does for her boyfriend or husband...not some guy she just met on their second date. Again, Super Bowl vs. pre-season mentality.
-Putting coins in the meter is on par with the previous example. Again, this is something you do for a boyfriend or husband. In her mind, she's thinking that you are, or could potentially be, a team...so, she's going to carry her weight. Most girls in a casual state of mind would never do that for you. It wouldn't occur to them to nuture you because you're just another dude...unless, of course, you've already fucked her. In which case you TELL her to get change for the meter ;)
-Kissing in public. I've never met a girl that didn't love it when a guy pulled them aside and kissed them in the 'heat of the moment.' Whenever that 'moment' happens to be...even if it's in the public, in the middle of the day. Early in a relationship, women love the public affection. It's when the relationship starts to mature that they think you should keep it at home. Again, I read this and think, it's not that she doesn't want you to kiss her, it's just that you don't make out with your boyfriend or husband in public...that's what you do with a guy you just want to fuck.

I know you think that you did some things wrong, which is probably true, but the interaction didn't go so well because you didn't really meet her expectations. She's looking for something more serious than casual. I think that's where you went wrong, I think you misjudged where her head was with respect to you. My guess is that she's probably really in to you but views you as 'marriage material,' not someone fun and exciting and casual to date.

If she was looking to just date around and have a good time, she would have saved some cash, sped up the process, and went on Match instead of eHarmony.[/QUOTE]

I felt the same way about eharmony. I tried it years ago, and I thought it was counterproductive. You can't just browse through members and contact the women you want; you have to talk to the people they selected for you. You have to graduate through a number of stages before you can even write an email. And the commercials definitely promote it as a soul mate finder.

There are two main reasons I decided to try it again:
1. One of my best friends is a guy who lives in Chicago who is the best PUA I have met in person. He has been in the community for about 10 years. He told me that he uses eharmony and has success with it. He says that he uses eharmony because that's the first one he tried, and he sees no reason to change. So I thought, if it works for him, then I'll try it.
2. I have used match and plentyoffish with some success. I find that on those Web sites, the really attractive women get emails from ALL of the men. It is much easire to game HB6s on match and plentyoffish, because they don't get as many emails, especially from attractive guys, and their lack of self esteem makes them easy targets. But for more attractive women, it's a lot of work, and many times you don't get a return email even if you play it perfectly. On the other hand, eharmony does the filtering for them. Attractive women are not inundated with emails every day. This time around, I have found that it is very easy to get to a phone number and a meet just by playing the question-and-answer game correctly.

I think the trick is how you pace the interaction. The first woman I met from eharmony I took home (I didn't fuck her though, which could be a whole other FR). Since then, the interactions have been more serious. I agree with PC that it's how you lead the interaction. If you let them lead, they'll take you to boring boyfriendville.

The thing is, the women have to realize that you aren't going to get married just because a computer crunched some numbers and determined that you're a match. You are going to go on many dates before you find "the one." You are going to kiss and grope and fuck to determine if there is sexual chemistry too. Even eharmony doesn't render that process obsolete. And just because you start that process with a woman, that doesn't mean it ends in marriage. Even women must know that deep inside their screwed up brains.

Now, concerning this particular girl, I could have led the interaction better. For example, when she folded the napkin, which I agree is a girlfriend thing to do, I could have said, "oh my god! I think it's so adorable how you folded this paper towel so neatly for me! I think I'm a little turned on." And that's the biggest thing I learned from this, to pace and lead the interaction where I want it to go.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Rhody;35566]Now, concerning this particular girl, I could have led the interaction better. For example, when she folded the napkin, which I agree is a girlfriend thing to do, I could have said, "oh my god! I think it's so adorable how you folded this paper towel so neatly for me! I think I'm a little turned on." And that's the biggest thing I learned from this, to pace and lead the interaction where I want it to go.[/QUOTE]


And, I guess that's the point I was getting at. The real question seems to be can you easily reset an expectation that has been set by eHarmony that she is meeting a potential boyfriend / husband? It seems to me that an expectation like that is not easily rewired, if at all.

It seems to me that you need to rewire her during the e-mail volleys and on the phone (yes, I think you need to break out the phone on this one to blunt the idea that you are boyfriend/marriage material). But, then do you find yourself in a catch22? Do you find yourself in a situation where by trying to rewire the interaction to be more casual does that mean you lose your appeal because you're trying to blunt the dynamic of being marriage material?