SP: Seeing relationships as cages timed to explode

[iconoclass]

(i posted this on masf too, just thought id go for as many responses as i could, I havent really posted much on here but I want to get in with you guys so nows a good a time as any)

I've been working on diff aspects of my game like approaching and carrying on conversation. But I keep getting to a point where its like I dont WANT to go any farther forward. I'm realizing I have a serious inner game issue where I am avoiding getting into an intimate situation like its the plauge.

Right now is a good explanitory example of the issues ive been having: Theres a chick in my class who's way into me, she comes to these extracurricular meetings i goto, always talks to me, tells me shes single, and brings up sex. (100% certain of her interest) Her friend invited me to the dance club (which i was going to that night anyway) and we danced a little. I know i should be an opportunist and take advantage of the situation. I realize the pussy is there and I just have to act on it. But I find myself not WANTING to. All I can think about is how if i get involved with her, I will be trapped with her until one of us breaks up with the other one. Until someone is mean to the other somehow. (Alot of (bad i think) community advice is just 'dont give a shit about that whore' etc but sorry its not easy for me to crush someone) I have so much anxiety over the impending breakup that I avoid the hookup in the first place. This is an extreme example of whats happening in all my sets I think. I will approach and talk and make it kindof a personal interaction, but when it comes to inviting her more into my life, I shudder at opening that can of worms.

Part of it is not wanting to get sucked into a relationship and stop training for PU, part of it is I just don't want to get super invested in some chick, also i dont want her taking up my time, or showing up unexpectedly when im not in the mood for company. I just really dont want or need a girlfriend for anything. I like my life how it is and I am a whole person and am not lonely, but I still need pussy. I would like to get past this emotional block, maybe date casually in such a way that I could end it at any time if i started feeling overwhelmed, without it being a huge deal. Maybe thats too much to ask?

So what I'm wondering is, how your relationships normally end? Is there a less jagged way to go about it?

Also, are there any materials or good posts about breaking up specificly, or about how to set up the situation differently?

Also also, does any one know of any good PU minded therapists in the area?

please any advice or thoughts you have...

[Vector]

Sex and relationships are distinct and need not always go together. It's a great myth of hollywood and popular culture that love and sex are necessarily connected, or that women require them to be connected. They do not.

My philosophy, I think I've posted before, but I'm too lazy to find it, is there are four categories:
A. No sex, no emotional connection
B. No sex, strong emotional connection
C. Sex, no emotional connection
D. Sex, strong emotional connection

The myth is that men want C, while women want B or D. Not so! A lot of women are perfectly happy with C. In fact a lot will want to avoid B and D because perhaps they just broke up, or they are tired of drama, or whatever.

Be honest with the girl that you are looking for C, and you may be surprised at her response. For me they are respectful and almost always they are okay with it. For some of them it takes a little adjustment because they are so used to the traditional dating and "love" frames (or that's what they say), but if you act like it's no big deal then they will follow.

Women come and go from my life and there is amazingly little drama. They do not get hurt and I am still friends with them. I'm not using or abusing them, we simply don't go there emotionally. What you must never do is lie to a girl and tell her you are at B or D, when in fact you're after C. That is just wrong and girls get hurt that way. That's a recipe for nasty nasty breakups.

If they get an emotional attachment, then you have to watch out. Even if you don't say anything, sometimes women will assume you are serious or exclusive. If I suspect it, I'll have a talk with them, and I tell them I'm not ready for that at this point in my life.

[Vicious]

I can relate, actually. I used to make excuses to myself about why I wouldn't like a girl if she EVER showed and IOIs. I would just completely talk myself out of getting to know her in a deeper way. Finding flaws where there were none, in her and in me, making excuses as to why i shouldn't continue, these were all signs of, perhaps, timidity but mostly of a fear of potential abandonment.

This has nothing to do with women and what they want in a relationship, it has to do with you and your wants. So, what is it that you fear? Abandonment, or perhaps you actually fear grasping that lightning rod which represent all beautiful women. Or perhaps I'm on the wrong track completely. The point is you have to find out what it is that repels you and where it comes from.

You speak of what you do and not why. You ask for tips on breaking up when it's the relationship itself that you're having trouble with.

I understand the desire to not feel trapped, perhaps better than most. But you're not trapped. You've never been trapped, unless I miss my mark here.

It IS frustrating as hell, though, to have a beautiful moment with a girl, smiling, playing with her hair, thrusting her chest forward, one leg crossed over the other, just BEGGING for you to touch her, to charm her, and you stumble completely and utterly for whatever reason. Then you beat yourself up over it later.

[Erock]

Copper man I am with you 100%. I have the exact same issue. Vector, when do you have that talk with women? Before or after sex? That's what I've been looking for an answer to for a long time. When do you do it and how do you do it? That is so key for me. I am scared as hell to escalate physically with a girl cause I'm afraid of being sucked into a relationship, and I hate drama with a passion. If I could get over this fear I think my game would explode.

Copper thanks again for posting this
Erock

[Vector]

Before sex I will not usually have a "talk" but from the time between meeting and closing I will either say or imply that I am having sex with other women. So the initial sex does not risk hooking a relationship I don't want.

Over time is where it needs managing. Pay attention to the signals you give, and the signals you get. She will want more (meaning relationship) and at some point you'll have to have the talk, before she starts to assume that you are serious or exclusive.

Don't have the talk right after sex (unless that happens to be when she asks about the relationship), because to me that seems to imply 2 things that I don't agree with:
1. Relationships and sex are connected
2. I just tricked her and I got what i want and now i'm denying her the possibility of a relationship
I just don't operate in that frame. Sex and relationships do not have to be connected. We're just having sex for the sake of sex because we both like it, and a relationship may develop eventually on its own, but it's a separate matter so I deal with it on its own schedule.

[Vector]

I'm going to elaborate a little on what I actually say to girls to convey that I don't want something serious. First of all, I don't make it about them, because their natural instinct is going to be to contradict me and prove how I am wrong, and how we could or should have a relationship. Bad strategy. I make it about myself.

I have four themes which are all pretty much true. You will want to use your own words, some of the following you should NOT say to your girl, but these are the THEMES:
1. I just got out of a relationship which was emotionally draining, and I'm not ready to be serious or exclusive right now.
2. From some prior relationships I developed some habits which make me give off somewhat of a "boyfriend" vibe. Like buying dinner and returning phone calls and so forth (including future projections). These are habits and are sorta a part of who I am, and you must not misinterpret them as relationship signals. I know I can give off mixed signals so I need to tell you not to read too much into it.
3. I have a bad tendency, almost a weakness, of wanting to tell people what they want to hear. I want to tell you that yes we can be serious or exclusive or whatever. But I am not ready to be serious or exclusive. Implied I am saying, do not to put me in situations where I am facing a lot of pressure to give the answer you want, because it is something I already have difficulty with, and I may have trouble giving you an honest answer. (One gf I had, years ago, asked me DURING SEX, "do you love me?" Obviously a stupid time for her to ask such a question if she cared at all about the honesty of the answer, and at the same time it puts me in a very uncomfortable position.)
4. I like you and I enjoy hanging out with you. I want to be good to you, because I care about you, and part of being good to you means being honest even when what I'm saying is not what you want to hear.

I guess an abbreviated version would be:
1. it's not your fault, there's nothing wrong with you
2. don't read too much into the "relationship" signals I give off
3. don't pressure me into giving the answers you want
4. I am telling you this because I care about you and I want to be good to you

The reaction should not be "what's wrong, I can be better, let's work it out" where she is basically fighting you to try to create a relationship. The response I am looking for is, "thank you for being straight with me, I know it can be difficult to say that and I respect you for being strong enough to be honest with me about it." I wouldn't expect those words but that's the theme I'm shooting for.

Ideally it's followed by "... but we can still have sex, right?" Again, she probably won't say those words, but there is a good chance she will continue to have sex with you after "the talk", and if so it indicates her full approval of option C. She will always be glad that you are honest, but she may or may not be okay (at first) with you being non-exclusive or not serious. But so far for me the girl has usually come around and would rather be with someone who is honest than with someone who tells her what she wants to hear. A guy telling her C she can trust, which in a way is more comfortable than a guy telling her D. She can relax, you're not trying to trick her.

[Rhody]

This is great stuff. It's what I have come to realize about what women REALLY mean when they say they don't want a guy who plays games. I mean, we all play "the game." But what women really mean is they want a man to be straight with her. Very often, she will continue to have sex with you after "the talk," because being straight and honest, having principles, and not being willing to abandon your principles for her is SEXY to her.

In a sense you're saying, "this is who I am and what I believe. If you don't like it, then I will understand if you want to leave." That is high value. It's almost like passing a shit test. She will probably want you even MORE. A guy who tells her what she wants to hear so he can have sex with her is low value/taking value.

[Erock]

Yeah thanks a ton Vector. The tricky part about this situation is that whatever you do, you don't want to get in a philosophical argument with her about relationships because that will lead NO WHERE. I know you brought that up cause you've been there before (as have I).

Erock

[Finch]

I, like many others I am sure, didn't get into this to get revenge on women. Quite the opposite actually. But it is still hard sometimes to justify my actions. The nice guy inside me feels guilty for sleeping with someone knowing ahead of time that I could never love them and could never see anything more than sex ever resulting between us. This is just something you have to get over.

The first time I went out after my LTR I met this girl who was getting married in a few months. I didnt pay her any attention because I thought she was unnatainable. I was wrong. Every time I saw her she kino'd me like crazy. Being unexperienced I didn't think too much of it. After all, she was engaged so there was no way she could want me. A few days later we got drunk and ended up fucking. Naturally I started thinking she was going to dump her fiance and be with me because sex and relationships go together. I was wrong. She had no intention of breaking off the marriage. She just wanted to have fun and get laid. I felt used so I did the only thing I could think to do and stopped seeing her.

Now that I look back on it I realize how dumb this was. She was a blast to hang out with and the sex was amazing. I should have held onto her as long as I could. This is the mindset you need to get into. You honestly have to convince yourself that anyone who is with you is privileged. If you two are able to have fun together and have great sex then it should be enough reason for her to stick around. If it isn't enough for her then let it be her decision to leave. Just be honest from the beginning and you will never have to deal with the situation you describe. And if you are worried that you won't get laid like this don't be. There are plenty of girls, like the one I met, who are just looking to have a good time like you.

[Erock]

Finch your quote is so fucking money. I'm stealing that. Do you bring up the fact that you don't want a relationship or do you let her do it and then tell her your deal? And do you do it before or after sex?