Incongruence and framing hand in hand

[Guest]

Framing is also a way to measure congruence.For example, a man in a suit with a notebook knocks on your door, what does he want?All jokes aside 90% would say, "To sell you something.", and for all intensive purposes, they would more than likely be right.When the salesman woke up in his townhome and got out of his memoryfoam bed with versace sheets, his self proclaimed unconsious frame was a top level salesman. Thus, he woke up took a shower, and shaved, put on the suit that societal rules tells us we need to wear (probably a nutrual color like blue, black, or gray) in order to be "respectful" and "presentable" all in order to "command respect" from people and clients. He got into his, at least $30k car (because thats a signal of status to most) and drove to his office, in a high rise that inspires and belittles the people who look at it with its granduer and magnificence, where he proceeded arrive at the 18th floor (because all important people work in the higher floors) to chat up the cute receptionist he would like to bend over and fuck, but of course he doesnt readily make it known because that would be socially wrong and onlookers have to read between the lines to see she really wants it, but she doesnt show it because she doesnt want to be viewed as the slut she is. He then grabs some coffee, chats some more in the break room because thats what social people do, they waste time talking about shit that doesnt matter, you know like that $30k car, or the townhome, or vaca in africa, or any of the other mindless shit we are suppose to desire. Finally he gets into his office, which is a corner office with a view. He gets some papers and the next stop is your door.now...In that story, does any of that seem incongruent with the man that would be standing in front of you? If you said yes, chances are it was, "why the hell a top level exec/salesman would be visiting you." especially since you dont know him. IN that case 1) we just uncovered a self limiting belief and 2) what i just described was a stereotype. More importantly, i described a stereotype as I see it.The salesmans frame, (im a damn good salesman), is what i have been talking about. This is what i would call the culmination of his internal action, thinking, and physcological frames. In layman, he walks, talks, acts and thinks as a top level exec/salesman would. This is congruence a la society. This is what society says a salesman/business man is. Anything the salesman doesn't do regarding the congruence of societies views of "salesman", he has to justify why with scoiety being the judge. (this is a different type of framing for a different time, maybe.)The question i pose: "Is it really "incongruent" if he doesn't adhear to the stereotype as society would have you to believe?"

[Guest]

depends from which point of view...

from the conditions you described, it is highly unlikely that a top sales manager/exec would go door to door meeting the clients (except to follow up on how his associates are doing)...

having said that, to the client he would be incongruent, but to the exec it would be not.

for example, Warren Buffett is one of the most respected investors; any advice he gives is generally taken with high regard. of course that makes sense, hes a billionaire investor with shares for Berkshire Hathaway trading for more than 100K! but is it incongruent for a billionaire to live in a home he lived in BEFORE he was a billionaire? yes (to people viewing outside) as thats not a billionaires lifestyle. but to the mid-west boy growing up, that is exactly who he is...

makes sense?

[Guest]

Yes, my first reaction is "Why is this guy a door-to-door saleman?" Not why is he at my door. I think prodigy was prodigally right, this guy wouldn't be going door to door.

But....

This guy could make housecalls. Doubtful it would be out of the ordinary for the persons home he went to.

When a person achieves a level of success, like this ficitious guy has, they don't do the mundane stuff like that anymore. They pay people to do it for them. The only position I can think of where successful people may still make house calls is an Insurance Agent. No one is sitting at home thinking "Wow, how come an insurance agent chose little ol' me?"

[Guest]

I think the real issue here is people make wild guesses all the time to fill in missing information. It's often subconscious and instantaneous. But the guessed information is somewhat contingent (i.e. has a probability attached to it) because at some level you know that you don't really know.

So your frame is based on a tiny bit of objective information (he's at your door in a suit) and a large amount of speculation.

Meanwhile his frame, which is quite different, is based on what he knows his lifestyle is.

But this is not what incongruence means to me. To me incongruence is when someone is attempting to project a frame that is different from their internal frame, and that difference can be detected. If they are acting like hot shit and they know they are a loser, and they are giving off cues that they don't believe their own bullshit, that's incongruent.

If the salesman acts consistent with being an exec/top salesman but you still don't believe him, because of the fact that he's at your door, and even if you slam the door in his face and continue to believe that he's full of shit, that doesn't make him incongruent. It just means you judged wrong.

As for society, it's interactions with society that inform your probabilistic guesses for fabricating the rest of the frame. In the past, every time a dirty homeless person has tried to talk to me, it was to ask me for something. So I make statistical guesses. Same with suits or symbols of money or tattoos or long hair or whatever else. Sometimes it's advantageous to have someone else's initial guess match the frame you're trying to convey. So those who want the frames try to comply with the appearance, reinforcing the stereotype.

[Guest]

It doesn't matter if you don't fit in to the stereotypical box that someone wants to shove you in to. What other people think of you does not make a difference - it's about what you think of you.

Congruency is all about being strongly congruent with your own worldview. Everyone's worldview is different, with some similarities.


Here is what I know...

#1 Successful people don't get their self esteem or self-image from other people or situations. Think about this - leaders are responsible for other people - and out of a sense of necessity they learn to control the frame, or cease being a leader/successful. They believe in themselves and know who they are. If I am a salesman making a ton of money, I have long ago decided in my own head what a salesman does and does not do, and I don't actively seek validation from others for something I already have an answer to.

Others might fall in to a leader's frame, or look to him to set the tone and expectations of different roles and norms.


#2 Successful people don't stereotype other people or judge them. They see value in people and bring it out of them for the benefit of everyone. Successful people set up factories in China and hire Indian engineers, and seek out diversity in the workplace, because they see opportunity where others might not.

Others might see people as adversaries or roadblocks to their own entitlement, which leads them to be bigoted and miss opportunities to succeed.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=grimm1111;32976]It doesn't matter if you don't fit in to the stereotypical box that someone wants to shove you in to. What other people think of you does not make a difference - it's about what you think of you.

[/QUOTE]


Not saying it does. Nor am I saying you should.

What I am saying is that people should be AWARE of stereotypes and the stereo types people are likely to form about you given the situation.

A key to controlling frames is to be aware of possible questions or incongruencies being projected.

To me, incongruence is also a tool people use to measure your frame. Meaning people typically ask and answer their own questions (without you hearing them actually do it) just to figure out where you're coming from, that's what I was attempted to emphasize.

With "incongruent" also being a final verdict.

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Finesse;32977]

What I am saying is that people should be AWARE of stereotypes and the stereo types people are likely to form about you given the situation.

A key to controlling frames is to be aware of possible questions or incongruencies being projected.
[/QUOTE]

I think I can understand where you are coming from, maybe we'll just agree to disagree on the point.

In my opinion, we have no reason to be aware of the incongruent behavior we project unless we are going to use the knowledge to change our behavior somehow to become more "congruent."

If you do this you are not controlling the frame. The frame is being controlled by whoever (one person or many) is dictating what is congruent to a given stereotype.

I may play by the rules and be the best looking contestant in a beauty pageant, but it's still the judges who control the frame.

Again, I think the strongest position to come from is to set your own expectations and just worry about being congruent with those.



A side note...

In the community dogma, "congruent" only really gets mentioned surrounding routines, DHV's, and other bullshit that we need to make believable. Being "congruent" basically means having my nonverbals match my bullshit, so that it can fly, and the only way to do this is to practice a my delivery many times.

My opinion on the whole idea of routines is that being anything other than yourself in the moment can only kill your confidence, which in the long run will only stunt your progress. This is because by running a routine, you are buying in to the premise hook line and sinker that you need to be someone else (a la mystery, style, etc) instead of saying what's on your own mind, to be attractive or good enough for other people.

Short term success doesn't breed confidence. Self acceptance does. And confidence breeds success.

But that's neither here nor there.

[Guest]

Just because you choose to ignore the fact that people are asking questions in their head about you, doesn't mean they go away.

That's why people try and fight you on a regular basis.

I do agree though, that in [U]some[/U] instances it is best to just blaze your own path though.

C'est la vie.

Agree to disagree.

[Guest]

Don't get annoyed.

Why are you trying to make this about me, dude? If you want to talk about me, we can talk about me.

I'm over the top and hardly perfect when I'm drunk, that isn't a secret. Overall, life is working out well for me these days. The community has been good to me, and I feel inspired to give back some of what I have learned on my own journey. Like many of us here, I am sure.

One of the big turning points for me personally was when I realized that confidence comes from self-acceptance, as I said in the last post. My free advice to people out there: The game can help people, or it can really fuck them up from the inside out.

For it to be any benefit, it's gotta be about putting in the work to actually becoming a better person, not about covering up who you are.

Take it or leave it, man.

[Guest]

This may sound counter-intuitive, but sometimes changing behavior can make you more true to yourself, not less.

It's like if you happened to wrongly learn some English words, and when you speak, sometimes the meaning people hear is not what you intended. To send a message using different words that are correctly understood is not covering yourself up with veneer, it's cutting through confusion to uncover your true self.

Assuming your goal is to faithfully represent your true self.

Completely separate is the issue of whether you aim to represent your true self, or to what degree you intend to represent some other qualities that are not you. Only in this case does the question of incongruence come up, when you intend to send messages that are not true. This is not apparent in the salesman example, so I don't think incongruence applies at all.

If you are sloppy about presenting your true qualities, (or if circumstances confuse them as in the case of the salesman) you are not incongruent. You're misunderstood.