female virtue vs male ego

[Guest]

"Virginity is revered, and in some places required for females prior to marriage, because in the past it was the only way men could ease their paternal insecurity."

Curious to hear your thoughts out there.

[Guest]

I've always stayed away from virgins. Don't like the whole idea of being the 'first' in that respect.

Then again, I have no paternal desires. As such, I have no paternal insecurity.

[Guest]

Bull Run - thanks for the comment. The virgin example is more for illustration of the point. As a more enlightened individual (and thus presumably not as influenced by false instincts), I am not suprised you don't buy into the dogma. Say what you will though - a lot of blokes feel this way. The ideal for their ego is to find an "un-spoilt" girl and keep her locked away. Control is the order of the day.

Human society (males) have (and continue) in their attempts to control and/or stifle the natural female libido. Maybe that would be a better way to put it. Obviously I believe there are lessons to be learnt in the details.

[Guest]

The below is from "Women's Infidelity" by Michelle Langley.

--

The use of shame as a sexual deterrent for girls is as prevalent
today as it was in the past. Let’s go into my office. I want to read
something to you.

Recently Dr. Phil did a show called, “Teens and Sex.” Early in
the program, Dr. Phil began citing statistics. He said, “Ten percent
of teens will have sex by age thirteen. Fifty percent of all kids are
sexually active by the time they reach the tenth grade. One in five
sexually active girls gets pregnant in high school. Half of all teens
don’t believe that oral sex is sex. So what a-- we’re gonna do today
is talk to you to make sure it isn’t your daughter.”

Judging from Dr. Phil’s introduction, a viewer could easily conclude
that the problem isn’t teen sex, it’s girls having sex.

Later in the show, Dr. Phil once again announced the show’s
topic. He said, “Our topic is ‘Teens and Sex’ and what effect it has
on them. Teens have no idea of the emotional ramifications involved
in having any type of sex. And that’s what we’re talking
about…how to prevent your daughter from having oral sex that
first time, how to get her to understand that if you choose the
action, you choose the consequences.”
Again, the audience heard the same discrepancy between the
show’s topic and the host’s actual words. Teens don’t experience
consequences, girls do.

The show included a tape of Dr. Phil’s son, Jay, interviewing
girls and boys about how they felt after having had sex. He asked
a boy, “And if you go out to a party and you meet a girl for the first
time and you have oral sex with her-- and that’s happened, right?
Did you look at her any differently?” The boy said, “Like, if she’ll
give you oral sex that easily, what makes you think she wouldn’t
do that with every other guy? So, yea, I’d think she’s a slut.”

[Guest]

Welsh_Dragon, that's an interesting post and I think you have a good point. I think this issue with a girl being a slutty whore stems back to religion and how it has pretty much always tried to repress people to further its own ideals. Religion has always looked at sex as bad, and if you do have sex, it can only be between married couples and for making babies. I think the reason is is that sex is natural and a desire everyone has. If you can take a natural desire like that and make you feel guilty and bad about it, then it is easy to control you because you must always come back for forgiveness and guidance.

This is why I think that so many people have the [link=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=madonna-whore%20complex] madona/whore complex[/link].

[Guest]

[quote1233846920=Just/Us]
Welsh_Dragon, that's an interesting post and I think you have a good point. I think this issue with a girl being a slutty whore stems back to religion and how it has pretty much always tried to repress people to further its own ideals. Religion has always looked at sex as bad, and if you do have sex, it can only be between married couples and for making babies. I think the reason is is that sex is natural and a desire everyone has. If you can take a natural desire like that and make you feel guilty and bad about it, then it is easy to control you because you must always come back for forgiveness and guidance.

This is why I think that so many people have the [link=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=madonna-whore%20complex] madona/whore complex[/link].
[/quote1233846920]

I couldn't disagree more. The sexual double standard is rational and naturally evolved.

Fact: only women can commit paternity fraud, deceiving men about who is the father of a child.
Fact: between 10 and 50% of children born in marriages do not belong to the husband.
Fact: millions of American men pay child support for children they did not sire.
Fact: once a child support order is entered, even a genetic test disproving your paternity does not remove the legal obligation to pay child support for a child that's not yours.

This problem is not new. Men invest huge amounts of resources into a family. The greatest fear of a man is not just infidelity but rather an infidelity that leads to paternity fraud. If a man id defrauded about paternity, he will invest his resources into propagating another man's genes. Such a man unwittingly snuffs out his genetic linage and propagates another's.

To prevent this, men have evolved a "slut defense." Men prefer to marry women who have demonstrated sexual restraint. Such women are less likely to defraud a man of his paternity. This is true even as men may prefer to have casual sex with women who lack sexual restraint.

Since men can never defraud a woman of her maternity, women do not care as much about the sexual restraint of a man. The double standard is not a "complex," but an evolved response to the pressures of mate selection.

References
[link=http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Her-Own-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0198504985/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233846969&sr=8-1]A Mind of Her Own[/link]
[link=http://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolution-Human-Nature/dp/0060556579/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233847015&sr=1-1]The Red Queen[/link]
[link=http://www.amazon.com/Mating-Mind-Sexual-Choice-Evolution/dp/038549517X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233847059&sr=1-1]The Mating Mind[/link]

[Guest]

[quote1233848727=Alcyoneus]
I couldn't disagree more. The sexual double standard is rational and naturally evolved.
[/quote1233848727]
The fear is evolved, albeit (IMO) outdated. Clearly this "slut defense" response was important enough to our caveman counterparts so as to be hard wired. The question for me becomes is the issue still valid, or just another dinsoaur like approach anxiety? If the fear is not useful then I want to "turn that off" and focus my attention to useful areas. I find this to be a common theme.

[quote1233848727=Alcyoneus]
Fact: between 10 and 50% of children born in marriages do not belong to the husband.
[/quote1233848727]
Robin Baker cites statistics of "at least 1 in 10" (Sperm Wars). Not sure where you get to 50% - I've not read this nor would I believe it to be approacing anywhere near that many. I'd guess under 10%.

[quote1233848727=Alcyoneus]
Fact: once a child support order is entered, even a genetic test disproving your paternity does not remove the legal obligation to pay child support for a child that's not yours.
[/quote1233848727]
If there was any doubt - even 0.01% in your mind - just get a paternity test shortly after the birth. Do it covertly if desired but you will have your peace of mind. Such a simple solution yet how many men don't bother? Mind boggling.

[quote1233848727=Alcyoneus]
This problem is not new. Men invest huge amounts of resources into a family. The greatest fear of a man is not just infidelity but rather an infidelity that leads to paternity fraud. If a man is defrauded about paternity, he will invest his resources into propagating another man's genes. Such a man unwittingly snuffs out his genetic linage and propagates another's.
[/quote1233848727]
Understood. Again though, if you are paying attention it should never happen. The "problem" in my opinion is listening to the caveman brain instead of realizing that society and technology continues so evolve. Solutions exist but caveman brain chooses to go with the "old ways". Sometimes this whole skillset just seems to involve turning that "old brain" crap off. As such I don't reject the more enlightened mindset - it works.

[quote1233848727=Alcyoneus]
To prevent this, men have evolved a "slut defense." Men prefer to marry women who have demonstrated sexual restraint. Such women are less likely to defraud a man of his paternity. This is true even as men may prefer to have casual sex with women who lack sexual restraint.
[/quote1233848727]
You are correct in that the "slut defense" evolved, as you have pointed out many times here. I think however you meant to say that men perfer to marry women who "tow the line" or at least act like they do/will.. But what does that even mean?? Can you really ever know about her past? Women can support themselves these days and they will do what they will do. Times have changed and the smart man changes with them.

I'm not advocating any certain behaviour here however to simply brush things "under the carpet" and try to exert "caveman" control is, in my opinion, folly. I'd rather know what is really going on. From this I find exceptionally useful tactics.

Just my 2 cent, thanks for ur reply.

[Guest]

[quote1233850540=Just/Us]
I think this issue with a girl being a slutty whore stems back to religion and how it has pretty much always tried to repress people to further its own ideals.
[/quote1233850540]

Absolutely agree however religion is the vehicle - complicit as a meme could be (Dawkins). It just wants to survive too.

Man (men) and religion make odd bedfellows.

[Guest]

The way I seem to act upon this is I too do not prefer virgins, and haven't had to deal with that since college (thank god.) I also don't care as much about the girl's previous sexual adventures as I do about the PUBLIC knowledge and maybe even rumored knowledge of these adventures. perception is reality....Im not the 'find an untainted girl and lock her away' type, but Im definitely not wanting to throw my hotdog down her public hallway. that probably falls more along the lines of perceived value than the topic at hand, though.

[Guest]

[quote1233850921=Smirks]
The way I seem to act upon this is I too do not prefer virgins, and haven't had to deal with that since college (thank god.) I also don't care as much about the girl's previous sexual adventures as I do about the PUBLIC knowledge and maybe even rumored knowledge of these adventures. perception is reality....Im not the 'find an untainted girl and lock her away' type, but Im definitely not wanting to throw my hotdog down her public hallway. that probably falls more along the lines of perceived value than the topic at hand, though.
[/quote1233850921]
I don't think the virgin example plays well in modern US society. Where can you find a girl over 25 who is a virgin? Likely if you did she would be a hog or otherwise undesirable. That very statement says a lot.

I don't have a good answer to this one. Definitely I don't always listen to my initial "judgemental" gut however. On the flip side though I prefer my son not to be raised by a hooker.

I guess my point is this :- if you always challenge every and any social norm/custom you will find many startling and unexpected truths. You will learn about yourself and women. It will make you better at pickup.

A final note to ponder .. if you don't intend to sleep with her (should always be your default state of mind) then why do you care if she just banged the whole football team?? Enter this mindset and you are winning (not with her necessarily but your energy will be desirable).