[quote1229183022=Finesse]
Interesting.
[/quote1229183022]
I know you're going to elaborate.
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by Guest » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:26 pm
[quote1229199131=Bull Run]
[quote1229183022=Finesse]
Interesting.
[/quote1229183022]
I know you're going to elaborate.
[/quote1229199131]
Since you asked.
People always boil down definitions. It is hard for people to identify the meanings behind their words. It's a belief or a way of life typically. What is out of the way for you is not out of the way for another. For instance the girl being in the same room while you may not FORCE the issue, I see it as grabbing a hold of opportunity. It could have been a male in the waiting room next to me.
Laws are passed when the greater amount of lawmakers agree that an "idea" is illegal or morally wrong, or because their feet itch, but how do the other 49% feel? Do they agree with what was just passed? Are they the ones that feel that it should not be illegal.
Our ideas are what take flight. Our ideas are our curse as well. How we sell our ideas are very crucial. Whether we sell them by force or by persuasion is the key. The definition of force being an issue.
BR I have always known you to be a very dominant guy. A guy who takes pride in the fact that youre, at most times ive seen you, larger than life. So you take approaches to conveying your ideas as "Your way or no way." Which I am willing to bet you've heard before in a fight with some ex's.
That, however, is not what was interesting to me. What I just stated should be easily transparent.
What was interesting to me was the dynamic. I noticed how the two different persuasion techniques relate to one another. How they work when mixed. How it applies to framing and emotions. Especially the emotion of annoyance.
Maybe I am wrong though.
[quote1229183022=Finesse]
Interesting.
[/quote1229183022]
I know you're going to elaborate.
[/quote1229199131]
Since you asked.
People always boil down definitions. It is hard for people to identify the meanings behind their words. It's a belief or a way of life typically. What is out of the way for you is not out of the way for another. For instance the girl being in the same room while you may not FORCE the issue, I see it as grabbing a hold of opportunity. It could have been a male in the waiting room next to me.
Laws are passed when the greater amount of lawmakers agree that an "idea" is illegal or morally wrong, or because their feet itch, but how do the other 49% feel? Do they agree with what was just passed? Are they the ones that feel that it should not be illegal.
Our ideas are what take flight. Our ideas are our curse as well. How we sell our ideas are very crucial. Whether we sell them by force or by persuasion is the key. The definition of force being an issue.
BR I have always known you to be a very dominant guy. A guy who takes pride in the fact that youre, at most times ive seen you, larger than life. So you take approaches to conveying your ideas as "Your way or no way." Which I am willing to bet you've heard before in a fight with some ex's.
That, however, is not what was interesting to me. What I just stated should be easily transparent.
What was interesting to me was the dynamic. I noticed how the two different persuasion techniques relate to one another. How they work when mixed. How it applies to framing and emotions. Especially the emotion of annoyance.
Maybe I am wrong though.
- Guest
by Guest » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:11 pm
Nah man. I don't think you're wrong because you see the world totally differently than I. Believe it or not, but I'm the type of person that tends to dominate my personal space when I'm around strangers. I'm very, very leery of strangers. And, I tend to think that some actions are a bit intrusive.
For example. Day Game. I'm the type of person that thinks that Day Game is slightly intrusive. I mean people are living their lives, they're trying to get shit done. Who the fuck am I to get in the way of that? So, when I run Day Game I do it when people are very clearly at leisure. A girl at a coffee shop passing the time, a girl taking time to look at and read books at a book store, a girl 'window shopping.' Will I approach someone at the grocery store? Nope. I mean, I have and people just don't appreciate your presence while they are living their lives. Having said that, I will do things to try to get an opportunity to approach or open a girl at the grocery store. Lines. It's the best way to open a girl. The best.
There is a fine line between being opportunistic and aggressive. There is a time and place for each. I think you and I are in agreement on that point. Where we disagree is when that line gets crossed. To me, it's sooner than it is for you. Call this line of demarcation the line that makes our respective styles different.
I think you actually already articulated the difference between you and I. I do take pride in being larger than life...mostly in the crotchal region. Which should provide some insight into why my line is closer than yours. If I take my true personality and I let it loose in a doctor's office can you imagine the social repercussions from such an act? It's simply not appropriate. And, I'm not going to open a chick and not be me. So, I'm somewhat at the mercy of Fate. If I get a legitimate opportunity then I'll let the Bull run. But, until then I'll just stew in my sickness while I read a copy of Modern Lady from the 1980s.
By the way, this is the best volly I've had in a long, long time. Not as good as Bull Run vs. Sleek but still good ;) (Sleek, if you're reading, NBL bro).
For example. Day Game. I'm the type of person that thinks that Day Game is slightly intrusive. I mean people are living their lives, they're trying to get shit done. Who the fuck am I to get in the way of that? So, when I run Day Game I do it when people are very clearly at leisure. A girl at a coffee shop passing the time, a girl taking time to look at and read books at a book store, a girl 'window shopping.' Will I approach someone at the grocery store? Nope. I mean, I have and people just don't appreciate your presence while they are living their lives. Having said that, I will do things to try to get an opportunity to approach or open a girl at the grocery store. Lines. It's the best way to open a girl. The best.
There is a fine line between being opportunistic and aggressive. There is a time and place for each. I think you and I are in agreement on that point. Where we disagree is when that line gets crossed. To me, it's sooner than it is for you. Call this line of demarcation the line that makes our respective styles different.
I think you actually already articulated the difference between you and I. I do take pride in being larger than life...mostly in the crotchal region. Which should provide some insight into why my line is closer than yours. If I take my true personality and I let it loose in a doctor's office can you imagine the social repercussions from such an act? It's simply not appropriate. And, I'm not going to open a chick and not be me. So, I'm somewhat at the mercy of Fate. If I get a legitimate opportunity then I'll let the Bull run. But, until then I'll just stew in my sickness while I read a copy of Modern Lady from the 1980s.
By the way, this is the best volly I've had in a long, long time. Not as good as Bull Run vs. Sleek but still good ;) (Sleek, if you're reading, NBL bro).
- Guest
by Guest » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:34 pm
How do you know that a woman isn't available to interact with if you don't find out. I took my son to the doctor last week and there was a girl in the waiting room waiting for the doc. I don't know why she was there but she engaged me on conversation and let me know she was of legal age and enjoyed my presence.
I didn't pursue because my mother came along because my sons mom set the doctors appointment up through her. My mom is the worst DLVing wing you could ask for. She gave me shit in the elevator for flirting with the girl in the waiting room.
The thing is, HBwaitingroom was open to interaction. She initiated. Maybe she just wanted to talk to someone. The only way to tell if you can brighten someones life with your presence is by brightening someones life with your presence.
It's not about banging the chick in the waiting room, it's about having enjoyable social interactions no matter where you are or where they lead.
I didn't pursue because my mother came along because my sons mom set the doctors appointment up through her. My mom is the worst DLVing wing you could ask for. She gave me shit in the elevator for flirting with the girl in the waiting room.
The thing is, HBwaitingroom was open to interaction. She initiated. Maybe she just wanted to talk to someone. The only way to tell if you can brighten someones life with your presence is by brightening someones life with your presence.
It's not about banging the chick in the waiting room, it's about having enjoyable social interactions no matter where you are or where they lead.
- Guest
by Guest » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:52 am
[blockquote]The only way to tell if you can brighten someones life with your presence is by brightening someones life with your presence.
It's not about banging the chick in the waiting room, it's about having enjoyable social interactions no matter where you are or where they lead.
[/blockquote]
I like that. I need to focus more on that I know many times I forget, and it's nice to see reminders every now and then.
It's not about banging the chick in the waiting room, it's about having enjoyable social interactions no matter where you are or where they lead.
[/blockquote]
I like that. I need to focus more on that I know many times I forget, and it's nice to see reminders every now and then.
- Guest
by Guest » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:22 am
[quote1229270507=Neuromancer]How do you know that a woman isn't available to interact with if you don't find out. I took my son to the doctor last week and there was a girl in the waiting room waiting for the doc. I don't know why she was there but she engaged me on conversation and let me know she was of legal age and enjoyed my presence.
I didn't pursue because my mother came along because my sons mom set the doctors appointment up through her. My mom is the worst DLVing wing you could ask for. She gave me shit in the elevator for flirting with the girl in the waiting room.
The thing is, HBwaitingroom was open to interaction. She initiated. Maybe she just wanted to talk to someone. The only way to tell if you can brighten someones life with your presence is by brightening someones life with your presence.
It's not about banging the chick in the waiting room, it's about having enjoyable social interactions no matter where you are or where they lead.[/quote1229270507]
Your example doesn't quite fit into the overall argument. She engaged you. In such a case, you have every right to pursue an enjoyable social interaction. That's fine. If someone engages me, I'm more than happy to play along. This is an example of being opportunistic.
What we're arguing about is whether or not it's appropriate to actively pursue an interaction with someone under certain circumstances. I contend that sometimes the socially appropriate thing to do is simply leave someone alone. The doctor waiting room is probably one of those times, unless Fate intervenes.
Anyway, I was thinking about this last night and I might have a slightly different view on this subject matter than the rest of you guys. Geography. I live in an in-fill location. So, I live, for all intents and purposes, in the city. (Note that I define in the city as anything inside Northwest Highway and north of 30.) I grew up in the suburbs and it was not all uncommon for people to have normal conversations with complete strangers in public. Down here though, it's a little different. Most people are leery of strangers. Most people are standoffish and simply want to be left alone. The culture of isolation is strong, which one would think is odd because population density is much higher down here than in the burbs so you would figure people would be used to interacting with others. The problem comes when you have to deal with people all the fucking time, everywhere. You get a little calloused. And, as such, you tend to want to be left alone. It's an interesting dynamic and a very real influence on how you engage the world.
I suppose I'm of the believe that there is a time and place for social interaction. We all have different ideas of when it is or is not appropriate. I think we can probably leave it at that.
Further, when in public you can usually tell who does and who does not want to talk with you. Girls will build proximity just like they do at a bar. They'll break eye contact down, just like at a bar. The signs are there, you just have to look.
I didn't pursue because my mother came along because my sons mom set the doctors appointment up through her. My mom is the worst DLVing wing you could ask for. She gave me shit in the elevator for flirting with the girl in the waiting room.
The thing is, HBwaitingroom was open to interaction. She initiated. Maybe she just wanted to talk to someone. The only way to tell if you can brighten someones life with your presence is by brightening someones life with your presence.
It's not about banging the chick in the waiting room, it's about having enjoyable social interactions no matter where you are or where they lead.[/quote1229270507]
Your example doesn't quite fit into the overall argument. She engaged you. In such a case, you have every right to pursue an enjoyable social interaction. That's fine. If someone engages me, I'm more than happy to play along. This is an example of being opportunistic.
What we're arguing about is whether or not it's appropriate to actively pursue an interaction with someone under certain circumstances. I contend that sometimes the socially appropriate thing to do is simply leave someone alone. The doctor waiting room is probably one of those times, unless Fate intervenes.
Anyway, I was thinking about this last night and I might have a slightly different view on this subject matter than the rest of you guys. Geography. I live in an in-fill location. So, I live, for all intents and purposes, in the city. (Note that I define in the city as anything inside Northwest Highway and north of 30.) I grew up in the suburbs and it was not all uncommon for people to have normal conversations with complete strangers in public. Down here though, it's a little different. Most people are leery of strangers. Most people are standoffish and simply want to be left alone. The culture of isolation is strong, which one would think is odd because population density is much higher down here than in the burbs so you would figure people would be used to interacting with others. The problem comes when you have to deal with people all the fucking time, everywhere. You get a little calloused. And, as such, you tend to want to be left alone. It's an interesting dynamic and a very real influence on how you engage the world.
I suppose I'm of the believe that there is a time and place for social interaction. We all have different ideas of when it is or is not appropriate. I think we can probably leave it at that.
Further, when in public you can usually tell who does and who does not want to talk with you. Girls will build proximity just like they do at a bar. They'll break eye contact down, just like at a bar. The signs are there, you just have to look.
- Guest
by Guest » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:31 pm
[quote1229278673=Bull Run]
What we're arguing about is whether or not it's appropriate to actively pursue an interaction with someone under certain circumstances. I contend that sometimes the socially appropriate thing to do is simply leave someone alone. The doctor waiting room is probably one of those times, unless Fate intervenes.
[/quote1229278673]
Nice. And I contend that this is not one of those times.
There were other factors that we aren't taking into consideration here.
Such as, was the body language open, was eye contact being broken down, etc... We weren't there and we don't know so we can't fully say whats what.
There are certain areas where people are less likely to look for and pursue an enjoyable conversation, but I've never seen a person turn down a fun-filled conversation or experience (unless she's on her death bed, which if she had make up on chances are she wasn't), but even then I'm sure she would want to laugh.
It's like from the movie Hitch where he says, A woman doesn't wake up in the morning and say, I hope I DON'T find Mr. Right today.
Our definitions are whats different. More in depth though the ideas of our definitions is primarily what differs here. As BR stated earlier, he thinks the line is crossed sooner, instead of later. I agree with that statement.
What we're arguing about is whether or not it's appropriate to actively pursue an interaction with someone under certain circumstances. I contend that sometimes the socially appropriate thing to do is simply leave someone alone. The doctor waiting room is probably one of those times, unless Fate intervenes.
[/quote1229278673]
Nice. And I contend that this is not one of those times.
There were other factors that we aren't taking into consideration here.
Such as, was the body language open, was eye contact being broken down, etc... We weren't there and we don't know so we can't fully say whats what.
There are certain areas where people are less likely to look for and pursue an enjoyable conversation, but I've never seen a person turn down a fun-filled conversation or experience (unless she's on her death bed, which if she had make up on chances are she wasn't), but even then I'm sure she would want to laugh.
It's like from the movie Hitch where he says, A woman doesn't wake up in the morning and say, I hope I DON'T find Mr. Right today.
Our definitions are whats different. More in depth though the ideas of our definitions is primarily what differs here. As BR stated earlier, he thinks the line is crossed sooner, instead of later. I agree with that statement.
- Guest
by Guest » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:02 pm
Just being unusual does not by itself mean that you're being socially inappropriate.
Whether you're being socially inappropriate depends almost entirely on [i]how[/i] you interact, and it has to fit in the social context. I have a couple mainstream dating books that say that women want to meet guys at grocery stores. And there's a grocery store scene in the movie Must Love Dogs, where the female character primps so that someone at the grocery store will talk to her. To go up and say "who lies more" I would say is inappropriate and weird, but it is definitely possible to open a conversation in an appropriate way. I would say for almost any context there is an appropriate way to strike up a conversation.
You don't have to be aggressive or plow or invade or force anything. She should want to talk to you pretty much right away. Just because you actively took the initiative to say something first doesn't mean you're pushing boundaries or violating social etiquette.
Whether you're being socially inappropriate depends almost entirely on [i]how[/i] you interact, and it has to fit in the social context. I have a couple mainstream dating books that say that women want to meet guys at grocery stores. And there's a grocery store scene in the movie Must Love Dogs, where the female character primps so that someone at the grocery store will talk to her. To go up and say "who lies more" I would say is inappropriate and weird, but it is definitely possible to open a conversation in an appropriate way. I would say for almost any context there is an appropriate way to strike up a conversation.
You don't have to be aggressive or plow or invade or force anything. She should want to talk to you pretty much right away. Just because you actively took the initiative to say something first doesn't mean you're pushing boundaries or violating social etiquette.
- Guest
by Guest » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:31 pm
[quote1229285715=Vector]You don't have to be aggressive or plow or invade or force anything. She should want to talk to you pretty much right away. Just because you actively took the initiative to say something first doesn't mean you're pushing boundaries or violating social etiquette.[/quote1229285715]
I totally disagree. Everyone has their own idea of etiquette. For example, if anyone ever tries to strike up a conversation with me while I'm at the gym you just violated my social etiquette. Period. End of story. Now, while I'm at the gym I make sure to throw off the 'leave me the fuck alone' body language. Which is where Finesse's statement about not living in a vacuum comes into play.
Listen, I'm not saying you can't approach someone in a doctor's office. I'm just saying that more often than note it's going to violate some social etiquette. Way more times than not actually. In a situation like this, I think the ONLY truly effective approach is one in which you take advantage of something in the room or that you just both witnessed happen. Example:
Garden State. Seeing eye dog humps Zach Branif's (sp?) character and sweet, sweet little Natalie opens him. She took advantage of an opportunity. Next you know, they're in love. Ah, how sweet!!! Bonus: the whole initial interaction occurred in a doctor's office waiting room.
Yes, it is a movie. But, life is stranger than movies. I'm sure many people have met in a doctor's office. I'm not saying it's not feasible or somehow wrong to talk to someone in a doctor's office. What I'm saying is that if you go to a doctor's office and IMMEDIATELY start talking to some chick, you will come off as creepy. Period, end of story. Now, if it's very clear to you that she's interested, then by all means go for it. I think you have a 50/50 shot here.
I guess what I'm saying is you either need permission OR you need a seeing eye dog to hump your leg.
A cold approach would be unwanted 95% of the time...probably more.
I'm going to give this more thought though. It's possible I'm just not seeing things clearly.
I totally disagree. Everyone has their own idea of etiquette. For example, if anyone ever tries to strike up a conversation with me while I'm at the gym you just violated my social etiquette. Period. End of story. Now, while I'm at the gym I make sure to throw off the 'leave me the fuck alone' body language. Which is where Finesse's statement about not living in a vacuum comes into play.
Listen, I'm not saying you can't approach someone in a doctor's office. I'm just saying that more often than note it's going to violate some social etiquette. Way more times than not actually. In a situation like this, I think the ONLY truly effective approach is one in which you take advantage of something in the room or that you just both witnessed happen. Example:
Garden State. Seeing eye dog humps Zach Branif's (sp?) character and sweet, sweet little Natalie opens him. She took advantage of an opportunity. Next you know, they're in love. Ah, how sweet!!! Bonus: the whole initial interaction occurred in a doctor's office waiting room.
Yes, it is a movie. But, life is stranger than movies. I'm sure many people have met in a doctor's office. I'm not saying it's not feasible or somehow wrong to talk to someone in a doctor's office. What I'm saying is that if you go to a doctor's office and IMMEDIATELY start talking to some chick, you will come off as creepy. Period, end of story. Now, if it's very clear to you that she's interested, then by all means go for it. I think you have a 50/50 shot here.
I guess what I'm saying is you either need permission OR you need a seeing eye dog to hump your leg.
A cold approach would be unwanted 95% of the time...probably more.
I'm going to give this more thought though. It's possible I'm just not seeing things clearly.
- Guest
by Guest » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:02 am
One way of opening that I've found almost universally applicable for all situations is something juggler calls floppsy. It involves basically saying what someone is thinking at the time that they are thinking it. Your example of a humping dog is exactly one of them that could be used. She is thinking about the humping dog, you comment on the humping dog and bam instant rapport.
A simpler example could be something like.
*shes flipping through a magazine and the pages get stuck together*
Me: Man don't you hate it when the pages get stuck together?
Her: I know it's always on the most interesting part too.
Me: Cool what's it about?
girl opened and in no way socially unacceptable or awquard.
Bull run you talk about how you are antisocial at the gym and totally in the zone. I can understand that and I think it brings up the point of how focused you are. At the gym you have a specific goal and way of doing things. The things outside of that do not matter so much, however at a doctors office who sits there uber focused like that? Like the only way I could imagine being that focused in a doctors office is if you really wanted to impress the doctor by having a kickass description of your symptoms. The fact that there is so much entertainment in waiting rooms (magazines, tv, cookies) shows that people want something to do, they want a cure for there boredom, and in my opinion even my sometimes crappy conversations are much more interesting than a magazine.
I do think there is a certain social etiquette, but in very few situations do I see having a social etiquette interfere with having a conversation with someone as long as you take the environment and situation into account. I think there is always a way to open someone if you really want to because we are naturally social creatures. I do also think its personal choice of when not to open. There are some situations where I really do not feel like doing it. That doesn't mean it's not possible or even that its not socially acceptable it just means I don't feel like opening at that time. I think this is not whether the girl will be receptive to conversation because I am that guy theyve been looking for and if they have to meet me in a doctors office then so be it. I think it's more about whether I am comfortable with opening her or not. That's why we can't agree on this. We can't agree because we all have different opinions of whether wed feel comfortable or not. I think the arguement here is somewhat fruitless. It's like a gay guy trying to convince you that you should start to prefer guys instead of girls. It's just personal preference. Our opinions are not likely to change.
A simpler example could be something like.
*shes flipping through a magazine and the pages get stuck together*
Me: Man don't you hate it when the pages get stuck together?
Her: I know it's always on the most interesting part too.
Me: Cool what's it about?
girl opened and in no way socially unacceptable or awquard.
Bull run you talk about how you are antisocial at the gym and totally in the zone. I can understand that and I think it brings up the point of how focused you are. At the gym you have a specific goal and way of doing things. The things outside of that do not matter so much, however at a doctors office who sits there uber focused like that? Like the only way I could imagine being that focused in a doctors office is if you really wanted to impress the doctor by having a kickass description of your symptoms. The fact that there is so much entertainment in waiting rooms (magazines, tv, cookies) shows that people want something to do, they want a cure for there boredom, and in my opinion even my sometimes crappy conversations are much more interesting than a magazine.
I do think there is a certain social etiquette, but in very few situations do I see having a social etiquette interfere with having a conversation with someone as long as you take the environment and situation into account. I think there is always a way to open someone if you really want to because we are naturally social creatures. I do also think its personal choice of when not to open. There are some situations where I really do not feel like doing it. That doesn't mean it's not possible or even that its not socially acceptable it just means I don't feel like opening at that time. I think this is not whether the girl will be receptive to conversation because I am that guy theyve been looking for and if they have to meet me in a doctors office then so be it. I think it's more about whether I am comfortable with opening her or not. That's why we can't agree on this. We can't agree because we all have different opinions of whether wed feel comfortable or not. I think the arguement here is somewhat fruitless. It's like a gay guy trying to convince you that you should start to prefer guys instead of girls. It's just personal preference. Our opinions are not likely to change.
- Guest
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