If my life were a movie it'd be called "Mr Stood Up"

[Guest]

I've never really had much of a problem opening sets. I often run out of things to say, which can lead to uncomfortable silence, but if the chick is cool and the conversation flows I tend to do alright (I think). The problem I'm having is I started getting back in to the game full-swing about 2 months ago and have set up 6 day 2s. All of them have cancelled or not shown up.

The most recent one was tonight. I met her friday at a party and we talked for about an hour. She mentioned some music she really likes and I said, "oh there's a band playing at ___ on wednesday that I think you'd like" she sounds really into it and gives me her number without me even asking. I tell her I'll call her after work. So today I text her about 6 when I get out of work and say let's head over there around 9. She texts back saying she's really tired and won't be able to make it.

Another one was a girl I met on a monday. We wind up kissing at the bar and make plans to have drinks on thursday. I call and she says she's not feeling very well but to call her tomorrow (friday). I text her that I'm going out with some friends and she should join us. She texts back that she has plans but let's have lunch tomorrow (saturday). I feel like i'm being strung along but I say, "ok, I'll call you when I wake up". Around 11 I call and she doesn't answer, so I text her to call me and she never does. I don't ever talk to her again.

A third one was a girl I met online. She actually lives about 3 streets away and was all like, "oh wow, we should totally get drinks some time especially since we live so close" It seemed shooting fish in a barrel, but we never went out because after 3 times inviting her out and her saying she can't make it, I eventually just said, "ok well let me know when you're free" and she never called back.

The other 3 were basically like those 3. My assumption is I'm not building up enough attraction? perhaps not enough DHVs so they feel like I'm not really worth their time? It's getting extremely frustrating, it makes me want to stop trying again.

[Guest]

[quote1245334421=brian]My assumption is I'm not building up enough attraction? perhaps not enough DHVs so they feel like I'm not really worth their time? It's getting extremely frustrating, it makes me want to stop trying again.[/quote1245334421]


Wrong.

This might seem a little controversial but, what the fuck do I care? That's how the Bull rolls ;)

So, here it is.

Attraction is created right away. In many, many cases it's instantaneous. So, if a girl is talking with you, if a girl gave you her number, if a girl seems at all interested, then guess what? She's already in attraction. Girls simply don't spend a lot of time associating with guys that they are NOT attracted to...that's how they roll.

So, based on your post, it's not attraction that's the problem. You've already built attraction.

And, we tend to think of attraction as something that is built, like it has units of measure. Which I think is true, but NOT INITIALLY. Initial attraction, in my opinion, is like a light switch. It's either there or it is not. Period. Certainly, some women will be attracted more than others but it's still a Yes/No answer in the beginning. The way to build massive attraction is through...

Comfort.

Which, I suspect is your problem. This is usually the case with newer guys. They spend too much time worrying about building attraction and not enough time worrying about building comfort.

The idea of DHVs is ridiculous. Dropping DHVs makes you a try hard...a douchebag. Don't worry about doing that. What you need to do is make her feel comfortable with YOU.

The way I run MY game, keep in mind that it's MY game, is to fight to stay in comfort as LONG as possible. My game is basically a Bell Curve. I spend very little time in attraction (remember if they're talking to you they're probably attracted), a SHIT TON of time in comfort, and almost no time in seduction. Visually, here's what I'm talking about...keep in mind that on the Y Axis is time and on the X axis is, in order, Attraction, Comfort, and Seduction:

[link=http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://classes.kumc.edu/sah/resources/sensory_processing/images/bell_curve.gif&imgrefurl=http://classes.kumc.edu/sah/resources/sensory_processing/learning_opportunities/sensory_profile/bell_curve.htm&usg=__n7i0WwOA1nN0wjeu2JHisRzqfww=&h=357&w=529&sz=14&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=LivRHLoLrIXouM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbell%2Bcurve%2B%252B%2Bpics%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1]Bull Run's Game[/link]

I actually FIGHT to stay in comfort. Even when the girl wants to move to seduction, I still FIGHT to stay in comfort. The reason is simple. The longer I fight to stay in comfort the more ATTRACTIVE I become to them. Seriously, people want what they can't have...if I stay in comfort as long as possible they'll want me as much as they possibly can. I call it Bull Dogging, I bite down and DON'T let go until they SEDUCE ME.

You spent an hour talking to one girl. That was an hour that should have turned into sex...maybe not that night but at some point in the future. If you want to build comfort, you have to have a game plan, of sorts. You need to show her your passions, your flaws, your humanity, your history, your future, your personality...but, the tricky part is that you need to do it without saying anything.

A successful PUA's conversations are multi-threaded and Seinfeld-esqe in structure. In other words, you talk about nothing but everything. I know how this sounds, but that's how life works. You've already built attraction my friend, now you need to work on learning how to talk to women.

Sadly, this skill is only learned through trial and error. You will fail. But, if you learn from your failures you don't fall. Stay the course man.

See you in the scene.

[Guest]

Thanks for the advice man, but doesn't building up so much comfort like that run the risk of being friend zone'd? I suppose that's why I'm so focused on attraction, is I've got a pretty long history of being a "good friend" to girls, which I assumed was because I skipped attraction and went straight to comfort. Perhaps I've swung too far to the opposite side of the spectrum now though.

[Guest]

[quote1245348408=brian]Thanks for the advice man, but doesn't building up so much comfort like that run the risk of being friend zone'd? I suppose that's why I'm so focused on attraction, is I've got a pretty long history of being a "good friend" to girls, which I assumed was because I skipped attraction and went straight to comfort. Perhaps I've swung too far to the opposite side of the spectrum now though.[/quote1245348408]


Not if you do it right. Remember, if the attraction is there then she'll want you to not be in the friend zone. Your job is to be interesting and fun enough to keep her intrigued. If you stay flitry and use sexual innuendos, she's not going to friend you...especially if she's attracted. Like I said, with experience you should be able to feel if you're in the friend zone or not. Also, you need to learn to presume. If a girl's talking to me, I just sort of assume that they want my juicy cock. THEY are trying to get ME. That's what I think and how I act. If you interact with her from this position, you have a ton of power and you won't find yourself drifting into the friend zone.

Finally, I think you may have misunderstood a little. When I say I spend time in comfort, I don't do it in linear fashion. In other words, I come in and out of the interaction...ejecting before it dies down and coming back in to raise the energy.

[Guest]

[quote1245378013=brian]
Thanks for the advice man, but doesn't building up so much comfort like that run the risk of being friend zone'd? I suppose that's why I'm so focused on attraction, is I've got a pretty long history of being a "good friend" to girls, which I assumed was because I skipped attraction and went straight to comfort. Perhaps I've swung too far to the opposite side of the spectrum now though.
[/quote1245378013]

So B R's posts are pretty well written; But I do have a few things to add regarding "friend-zoning":

I have many friends that are girls.
Most of them I've known for a long time...a select few of them I definitely wouldn't mind bedding if there weren't implications involved in doing so.

The difference between how I became friends with them and how I ever landed a girlfriend or any other sexual relationship was the presence of some level of sexual undertone BALANCED with a level of comfort.

Example:
You start talking to some girl in a bar. As B R mentioned...you can assume she's attracted.
Always Assume Attraction....and put any unreasonable ideas that she's not attracted COMPLETELY out of sight and mind.
That's a whole other post though, so that's all I'll say about that.

For her to be "in comfort" means that she's not nervous or unsure of you anymore...she is enjoying talking to you...she has found some common ground with you...there is no longer a lingering consideration in the back of her mind that you are just some guy she just met that she can't (or might not be able to) trust...etc.

All through this, if your kino, eye-contact, smiling, teasing, etc are all well-balanced...you will be fine.

And, to clear any misconceptions, sexual undertones don't have to include dirty jokes or blatantly mentioning how hard her nips are...etc.

Touching her back to move her out of someone's way...a half-smile with eye-contact when the convo dies down...getting close enough for a kiss, but not going all the way through with it....or teasing her (within reason) without worry that she'll walk away....or any other way of building some kind of sexual tension will all keep you out of the friend-zone.
Those things work because they aren't things that guy-friends do.

The trick is to keep a balance between things that guy-friends DON'T do and the comfort building.
Going really direct is ok (and its even pretty fun too), but I don't really find myself doing that much anymore.

So if you start finding yourself friend-zoned alot...look back and try to think about how many things you did that guy friends DONT do.
If you get blown out for being too creepy or obnoxious....ease off on the sexual stuff and focus on the comfort stuff more.

[Guest]

I think I've been confused by bad terminology. I just realized what we're trying to build isn't comfort, but rather [b]trust[/b]. It doesn't take much trust to talk to a random person at the bar, but it takes a whole lot of trust to have sex with him. That trust can make a person feel comfortable with another, but it's really a side-effect.

In my particular situation, the girls have trusted me enough to give me their number, but then later they probably started thinking, "wait, I don't even know this guy, what if he winds up eating my liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti?"

Once I started thinking of it in terms of trust, all kinds of ideas on how to solve it started pouring into my head. I can introduce her to my friends (builds trust + social proof), I can tell her about my life (though obviously not in a boring way), I can make her feel like I'm honestly interested in her life (so it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to get laid), I can protect her from d-bags in the bar, etc...

I also started thinking I can come up with day 2s that involve her friends. Instead of saying, "hey there's a band playing on friday, you should come." I can say, "hey there's a band playing on friday, you should bring your friend." The idea being that her friend increases her trust (and therefore comfort) level. I'm not sure if this is a great idea though.

[Guest]

[quote1245448889=brian]
I think I've been confused by bad terminology. I just realized what we're trying to build isn't comfort, but rather [b]trust[/b]. It doesn't take much trust to talk to a random person at the bar, but it takes a whole lot of trust to have sex with him. That trust can make a person feel comfortable with another, but it's really a side-effect.

In my particular situation, the girls have trusted me enough to give me their number, but then later they probably started thinking, "wait, I don't even know this guy, what if he winds up eating my liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti?"

Once I started thinking of it in terms of trust, all kinds of ideas on how to solve it started pouring into my head. I can introduce her to my friends (builds trust + social proof), I can tell her about my life (though obviously not in a boring way), I can make her feel like I'm honestly interested in her life (so it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to get laid), I can protect her from d-bags in the bar, etc...

I also started thinking I can come up with day 2s that involve her friends. Instead of saying, "hey there's a band playing on friday, you should come." I can say, "hey there's a band playing on friday, you should bring your friend." The idea being that her friend increases her trust (and therefore comfort) level. I'm not sure if this is a great idea though.

[/quote1245448889]

its good to build trust so that she will sleep with you, but you have to get her to WANT to sleep with you. for that, re-read AlphaMo's post. he makes a great point about building that sexual tension. you can build sexual tension by using sexual innuendos and setting a sexual frame, that will leave you out of the friend zone.

as others have said, if shes talking to you, assume attraction. thrown in with AlphaMo's balance of sexual tension and comfort and you should be fine....

[Guest]

Right, there should definitely be sexual tension, but I suppose I consider sexual tension to be slightly uncomfortable, so it was confusing to me that I'd be doing both. That's why it was such a big deal when I realized I really want to build trust. You can build sexual tension and trust at the same time, and trust isn't always comfortable.

[Guest]

[quote1245465276=brian]
I think I've been confused by bad terminology. I just realized what we're trying to build isn't comfort, but rather [b]trust[/b].
[/quote1245465276]

PERFECT. You took the idea and interpreted it for yourself.
Doesn't matter what anyone else says in this thread any further...go take exactly that thought you just had, put it to work, and learn something from it.

Then come back and ask more questions...and come up with some more ideas from the feedback.
I don't think there is a better way to become an expert at something.

[Guest]

I get flaked on ALL the time. I'd say 40% of women who say they'll go out with me end up flaking at the last minute. I don't think a woman has ever flaked out on me a day in advance such that I could make other plans. It's ALWAYS right at go time. Inconsiderate little bitches.

As for comfort, I've been flaked on by women who I had shit tons of comfort with, one I had already slept with, and then I've had women go on first dates with me after meeting me for 15 minutes. I've had them flake after 45 minutes or an hour of phone conversation and I've had them go out with me and not flake with less than 10 minutes of phone conversation.

I'm just looking back at all my first dates over the last 2 years. I remember reading on a website somewhere that women were more likely to flake on a big event, like a Ranger's game, as a first date, than on a small event, like meeting out for a drink at a bar or lounge or restaurant. It made it sound like you were trying to get a deer to eat out of the palm of your hand. Baby steps. And it made sense after reading it in black and white. I tend to believe everything I read.

That said, my own actual, real life experiences aren't in alignment with that theory. I've had the most success with first dates being Ranger's games. In fact, going through my memory banks, only one girl has ever flaked on a first date that was a "big" event, and that was a Cowboy's game. (I was pissed!) When I invite them out for drinks, or something small, my flake percentage is probably around 70% I'd guess. With MLB/NFL games, it's probably less than 10%. (Gee, I've never actually given this any thought before now, so I might be getting some Stars/Mavs tickets)

I think the female thinking must go something like this: We're just meeting out for drinks or food, it's no big deal, I kinda feel nervous so I'm gonna cancel. He'll ask me out again. They always do. And next time I'll probably feel more like going out on a first date.

However, when it's a Ranger's game, she's probably assuming I've already purchased tickets and if she flakes at the last minute, I'm gonna lose the money I've spent on those tickets. She feels a RISK that I'll be so pissed I'll never call her again. So rather than RISK never hearing from me again, she forces herself to find the stones to actually show up.

And another thing about a big event like a Ranger's game, is, they never try to bring a friend along for the first date. Meeting out for drinks, they often do.

As for first dates that aren't big events, I could probably further sub-divide my first small dates into weekday dates and weekend dates. First dates on Friday or Saturday nights have NOT been good to me. Personal experience has taught me that they are WAY more likely to flake out on those nights. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights are probably the lowest percentages for flakes on small dates, based on my own personal experience.

Once they flake, they have all the power. If you never pursue her again, you'll never seduce her. If you ask her out again, you are sub-communicating all the wrong things.

I wish I had the answer on this. I was asking a female bartender about this and she said she has a friend, who is hot, and her friend flakes on all guys 100% every time. She even knows she intends to flake on them when she agrees to go out with them. I guess there are women out there like this one and we're gonna run into them from time to time.