Cause->Effect...and Effect->Cause

[Guest]

So this idea has been floating around in my head for some time...and I'm interested to hear what others think.
This turned out to be a long-ass post, but oh well...thats what you get when you mix ADD AlphaMo with bored-out-of-town-while-the-whole-family-goes-to-bed-at-9pm AlphaMo.

So I'll start with trivial examples of direct and indirect causalities:
(Note...'Causality' = 'relationship between a cause and an effect')

First example:
I'm in set with a girl, and I ask her to come in closer to me because I can't hear her.

The girl comes closer because I asked her to....for the sake of the example we aren't concerned with why she complied or any of that....just purely the fact that I asked and she did.

So this is a direct causality.


Second example situation:
I'm in a bar, and I begin talking to a girl that I've never met before.
Lets say I use my (somewhat over-used now) 'Hey wait.....Sarah right?..no?.....hmmm where the hell do I know you from?' opener.
Also, assume that I do NOT in fact know the girl...have never met or seen her before in my life.

Lets say the girls' response is "Yea....you look familiar....but I don't know where we know each other from".
There are several possible responses she could give to this, but experiences of mine show that alot of times the girl will agree and actually BELIEVE we know each other from some where.

The question is, why does she believe we know each other from somewhere if we have never met before?
The answer would be that my apparent genuineness and confidence in giving my opener 'sold' her on the idea....so she now believes that I look familiar.

Ok, so there we have an indirect cause-effect.
The initial cause is that I suggested that we know each other.
In making this suggestion a thought in her mind was induced that she believes we know each other....which is really just a correlation to what she thinks my thoughts are.
However, the net effect is that she now believes that we know each other.

So her BELIEF that we know each other is a result of that thought having been induced in her head by my suggestion...which is what makes this an indirect (AKA 'correlated') causality.

[
Quick Side Note:
I've discussed this opener with other people....both community and not.... and most agree that I have a 'familiar face'.
While that may very well be true; I have seen/heard other people use this opener successfully. I've also found that it doesn't work so well for me in situations where I don't really try hard to convince her of it.
So I've come to the conclusion that the success of the opener is really more based on your ability to sell it....and not necessarily whether you have a familiar face or not.
]


So all thats just fine and good and all (and really just seems over-analysis of such a simple concept).....but what I've been considering lately was the feasibility of reversing a causal relationship with an indirect causality so as to INDUCE a 'cause' by means of an apparent 'effect'.

Ok....re-reading that, that sounds confusing as all hell...so let me give a few examples.

Consider the other commonly used dont-let-go-handshake:
You reach out to shake her hand, and you hold on to it as you talk. Then you blame her for trying to hold your hand, and playfully throw it away.

Clearly she wasn't actually trying to hold your hand....but you have suggested to her that the Cause of that Effect (you guys holding hands) was that she likes you.
This correlates (or suggests) a thought in her head that she likes you...even though you where the one, all along, who actually induced that thought intentionally.

So thats a pretty basic idea that most people might be aware of who have read stuff/been active for any period of time.

Now take a MUCH more indirect correlation technique and consider the most popular compliance test in the book:
"Let me see your hands"
Hands palms-up = compliance
Hands palms-down = non-compliance.

Lets say she 'doesnt comply' and puts her hands palms-down.....you reach up and turn them palms up, then continue with whatever you're doing.

At first, I would say that turning a girl's hands palms-up probably wouldn't actually do anything for you....it just sounds too weak.

However, if you assume the induction (or 'reverse cause-effect') concept explained in the previous example to be correct (AND you actually believe the palms up/down thing is real), then you'd say that turning her hands palms-up could also correlate a minor thought of compliance in her head and atleast open you up to more reception of compliance from her.

Another example to consider (since the palms compliance thing is kind of weak, IMO):

Misinterpretation...
(classic and boring example)
Her: I saw you over there earlier talking to that other girl.
You: Geez how long have you been watching me? Cool, I've never had a stalker before....

Many know that misinterpretation works pretty well when used properly.
But is it because it's "C&F"? Or is it because you're creating thoughts in her mind by means of treating her words as an effect of a false cause (and therefore inducing the cause to be real in her mind by means of suggestion)?

If its the latter, then this concept becomes pretty useful in helping you to guide the thought-process of a girl to where you want it to go.

[Guest]

Alpha:

Great post. I love it when guys actually sit down and THINK about why this works and why it doesn't.

The fact is that if you take some time to work on you, to build your esteem, to round yourself off (read a complete individual, not a completely fat individual), then you begin to create that 'causality' that you just wrote about.

You can create a totally different world if you work on your inner self. Sounds odd huh? Well, so does the notion of cutting taxes increases government tax revenue (don't mean to be political, but the truth is the truth). If you change your internal mechanisms, your internal thought process, your internal frame, then you can totally 100% manipulate the external world. You can create your own effects.

Alpha, I think this is the overwhelming theme of your post.

[Guest]

I think the two of you just lost everyone is your magical words.

Seriously though I have a feeling this is way over your average PUA head.

What you have just wrote Alpahmo is a huge basis of my game. In fact I would almost call it my platform. It is amazing how much you can influence a girl to think a certain way by doing little stuff like this.

You run into a girl like 3 times in a circular bar like Finn or Locks. You accuse her of stalking you. Bam instant little banter started and some more attraction built.

I am saying you are attracted to me without saying it. And she is thinking I am attracted to this guy.

But I will throw this out there just to put a wrench in the gear. Don't you think the girl complies to whatever little thing you throw up because she deems you high value? Meaning without this designation this shit won't work. I must say the answer is yes however I would love to be proven wrong on this. Because I think this is so powerful that if anyone could use it to their advantage they would be at least one step ahead.

[Guest]

[quote1228086984=playercool]
But I will throw this out there just to put a wrench in the gear. Don't you think the girl complies to whatever little thing you throw up because she deems you high value? Meaning without this designation this shit won't work. I must say the answer is yes however I would love to be proven wrong on this. Because I think this is so powerful that if anyone could use it to their advantage they would be at least one step ahead.
[/quote1228086984]

The first instant a girl meets you, an impression of some sort (maybe good, maybe bad, maybe indifferent, etc) is going to be made in her mind about you. So how do you make that impression imply that you are 'high value'....and what really is 'high value'? (Not looking for a philosophical/existential response there for all you smart asses).

I might quickly define 'high value' as someone who has their shit together, knows what they want out of life, and has a good understanding of the world and how it works.

Well, in reality, there's no real way to know all those things about a person having known them for only a the limited time-frame of your first and maybe second interactions. To truly find all that out about a person, you have to actually get to know them....but people work by pattern association; So they make a quick assessment of your 'value ranking' based on what they have to work with so far, and how that fits into the pattern of observations they've made about other people in the past.

So if a girl deems you 'high value' in a bar...or at starbucks...or on campus...or wherever you're running game, she must be making an ASSUMPTION that you are 'high value' based on the various things that have been communicated to her so far:

He's with a bunch of friends, they're all having a good time, he's good looking, he's dressed well, he looks people in the eyes when he talks to them, he has girls around him, people enjoy being around him, he has confident body language.....................(etc)

These are all things that a 'high value' person does....but they do not CAUSE him to be 'high value' they are a RESULT of him being 'high value'. Fact is though, maybe he doesn't know exactly what he wants out of life, or he hasn't been successful in all of his ventures yet, or he's not usually surrounded by women...its just a good night for him.

Those things don't matter in your game if you can show all of the signs that women assume are a RESULT of a 'high value' dude. If they see a RESULT, then they assume a CAUSE...even though they have little (or possibly even no) solid proof that the CAUSE is real.


So if you can walk up to a girl at a venue having not known her before, and she already sees you as 'high value', then you've already used the reverse causality concept to get where you're at.
After that you can continue to use it by generating the EFFECT of whatever you want her to think, and leave it to her to assume the CAUSE. She probably won't question the CAUSE because she thinks she's seen it for herself (when in reality, all she's seen is the EFFECT).

Example: Treat her like she's attracted to you (even if maybe she's not), and eventually she'll start to believe she's attracted to you.

[Guest]

I dunno Alpha, I think you can exude the notion of high value...read value projection...within the first few seconds of an interaction. Over time you have to reinforce it with some substance.

I guess the route I was taking was that I'm not sure what happens first: you plant the idea in her head, she complies and you become the person that you made her think you are...OR are the person you think you are and you simply project that to people?

Chicken and the egg right?

[Guest]

I dont think women "comply" just because they perceive you as high-value within the first minute of an opener! The girl just met you a few seconds ago and doesn't have much more to go off of than your looks. Most likely you haven't done anything that has indicated your value.

It has more to do with people wanting to fit in and be accepted. Don't forget the impact of the "power of suggestion" and what that has to do with illiciting a certain response.

[Guest]

[quote1228144774=UncleHOwie]
I dont think women "comply" just because they perceive you as high-value within the first minute of an opener! The girl just met you a few seconds ago and doesn't have much more to go off of than your looks. Most likely you haven't done anything that has indicated your value.

It has more to do with people wanting to fit in and be accepted. Don't forget the impact of the "power of suggestion" and what that has to do with illiciting a certain response.
[/quote1228144774]


Couldn't disagree more. Looks are important, they do matter. But virtually all communication is non-verbal and as such you can project 'value' through tonality, body language, facial expressions, smiling, your clothes and general 'style', the list goes on.

What you say to someone as an opener has to be compelling enough to have their high level brain (i.e. your analytical thought processes) to distract them while their lower level brain, which is responsible for attraction, to properly assess you as a potential mate.

I do think people generally want to comply. But, and this is really the crux of my argument. I think people inherently want to comply with those that they perceive to be high value. I think you've got the cart before the horse on this one. Value drives interactions, value drives compliance, value drives attraction. It's not the other way around. (Note that I define value very generally, but it the broadest sense I would say it's simply your viability as a potential mate. It is very much driven by biology.)

Finally, I pose this question to you Howie. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, that aside. If looks matter to the extent that you think it does then how does the unattractive, natural pull so many chicks? This is a person we've all seen, we all have stories of this guy. Shit, take a walk in the mall and he's everywhere. This dynamic cannot be completely explained away by the beauty is in the eye of the beholder argument, although I suspect a pretty healthy majority of it is due to individual preferences. I would contend that the guy has a lot of perceived value and therefore becomes more attractive to potential mates. Value then attraction. Value and charm and charisma drive interactions. They create attraction. The Community is all about trying to short circuit this process to make men more socially savvy, therefore increasing their charm, therefore driving value, therefore creating attraction.

[quote1228143904=UncleHOwie]It has more to do with people wanting to fit in and be accepted. Don't forget the impact of the "power of suggestion" and what that has to do with illiciting a certain response.[/quote1228143904]

I agree that the power of suggestion is powerful, but only after you've established attraction. Normal people don't want to comply with an individual if they don't think said person has some level of value or potential.

[Guest]

You're forgetting that most people have a tendency to play along with such things out of politeness until they've actually reached a decision of "yes I know this person" or "no, I do not." You've skipped over the possibility of her just being polite until she figures this out, which essentially gives you a bit of time to present yourself a bit more...making the outcome of the decision pointless. Either way, she's receiving a value boost from knowing you NOW.

[Guest]

True. Thanks Smirks. There is the dynamic of I'm going to give you a little bit of time simply because you have came up to talk to me. I think this is very real, but I also think that generally speaking people make decisions about you as a person very, very quickly. I would hazard to guess that you don't 'win' as many people over as you might believe. I think people have a tendency to size you up, subconsciously for the most part, almost immediately.

The speed with which we make decisions about people has been something that I've put a lot of thought into and have pretty much come to the notion that people make judgments about you much more quickly than we would like to believe. I've literally seen attraction show up within the very first moments of an interaction. Which would indicate that non-verbal cues (read value projection) and to a lessor extent, looks, are hugely important in the Game.

[Guest]

BR- [i]"Couldn't disagree more. Looks are important, they do matter. But virtually all communication is non-verbal and as such you can project 'value' through tonality, body language, facial expressions, smiling, your clothes and general 'style', the list goes on."

[/i]

Don't disagree with ya bud, those items you mentioned are important and I kind of group them into the "looks" category.
I should have re-read that.......Yes, non-verbal items do demonstrate initial value. lol, Thanks.

In this months edition of Playboy one of the models was quoted about unattractive average guys and how they attract hotties. I'll find it tonight.