Framing

[Finesse]

Most of you know I have been studying frames more recently. This is just a post of my observations thus far, it may or may not be revolutionary, but I dont care. This is just what I have noticed about frames as of late.

El Topo's post on Frames.
http://the-red-mole.blogspot.com/2007/11/frames.html

I've been following ET and CJ's takes on frames more recently.

FRAMES are CRUCIAL to any PUA's game. Any PUA who can master frames and frame games and such, has a very good chance of blowing the door wide open when it comes to their limits in game.

I've noticed, frames are used everyday, in every conversation, glance, and look. Every body position tells a story and anything that a person does sets a frame. I am curious..... Is there a way to set an "approachable" frame. Like if a girl is extremely attracted to you, and she's giving you the "fuck me" eyes, can you frame her, from a distance to approach you instead using body language and eye contact? Is this why some guys seem "more approachable" than others?

Also, I'm curious about how far the frame should go when dealing with the cockblocks. Where exactly is that line that you must draw in order for you to successfully bounce or "steal" your target, when using frames?

A list of the frames I have observed over the past 2 days:
Teacher frame
Customer frame
Employee frame
Seducer frame
Seducee frame
Party guy frame
Caring guy frame
Friend frame
Attraction frame (including here, sexual attraction, friendship attraction, aquintance attraction)
- Going into more detail about these frames, they go in stages, Aquintance first, meaning that they like you enough to continue to talk to you for a little but not enough to give the number, friendship attraction frame means you arent going sexual with your attraction material, and the sexual attraction frame means you are.)
Authority frame
Subordinate frame
Playful submissive frame
Playful dominent frame

Each frame can actually have multiple frames inlayed into them inherently thus making a frame that much more transparent from what I can tell.

From what I gather, if you take a frame down to the basics, it all comes down to a give/take type relationship.

For instance the simple command, "Get me a glass of water while you're up." Could have multiple types of inlayed frames, due to tonality, voice inflection, and body language. (This is the reason texting is so hard to do sometimes, understanding framing will help with your text game a ton.) So lets add this to that phrase,

Your mom is bed ridden and you are taking care of her, you are in her room talking to her and you get up to go get some grapes.... she says it in a very subordinate frame that implies "taking pity" on her. It's not authoritative and thus puts you in control. Although you are likely to get her a glass of water regardless of what tone she uses or whether or not she uses an authoritative framing position, the fact that she conveys a "take pity on me" atitude and tonality puts her in control, because she is subconsiously pulling at your soft spot and you don't notice.

Take that same line, "Get me a glass of water while you're up" and apply it to a bar scenario, you and the dudes are chillaxin, sippin on some, and you are tired of beer, you want some water, but you pinned in.... a buddy is gonna go to the bathroom.... you say in a very subordinate frame "get me some water" and they are likely to respond favorably since you arent taking an authoritative stance.

Of course this all goes down to how you grew up. Some people have grown up being very submissive (like myself) and have had to break the cycle. Of course you have to be able to recognize that in which you intend to break. Constantly being in a subordinate, submissive frame is what is typically called, "Being Beta".
Just as being in a authoritative, dominate frame makes you alpha.

I think, I haven't tested yet, that it doesn't matter what type of frame it is as long as it is the dominant version of it. I think every frame has an authoritative side, and a subordinant side as a fundamental law to negative/positive theories. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.... Just some are beta moves and some are alpha. Which ones are you exhibiting?

[EL CHUPACABRA]

We will try this next time we are out for sure...and not on the bartender either!! haha

[Smirks]

I've been interested in frames lately too...and minus the latter part of our evening last night, I've been doing my best to break myself of my habit of being in that submissive frame. If you find more info, please post!

[Tribulus1000]

See also

Full Facts Book oft Cold Reading by Ian Rowland

The Rainbow Ruse its called.

I'm currently experimenting with these.

My favorite kinda links both sexual interest and comfort together,

something like "You're really adventurous and wild at heart but at the same time, I see you as more chill and laid back. I like that."

If either is "true", then the other is also true. And its also NLP.

CJ's post on his blog about Stealth Patterns shows how to deal with internal interrupts like ASD.

Good stuff.

Carry on.

[Dragon]

I am listening to Swinggcat 16 CD collection.

When I got to the framing part, this is what I got out of it.

To me, framing is like control and confidence with your goal clearly stated.

You want them in your frame because you are in control of your box. What you think is what you are. And using framing clearly allows you to form a clear thought and clarity that a half drunk or dizzy blonde or simply someone without a plan or goal cannot defend against. Someone who is defiant to the core will never fall into your frame unless you create another frame that can counter that type of person.

[Guest]

I want to get ya'lls opinions on this.

What frames do you guys actively think about setting with your sets?

What frames do you constantly want to set?

Which frames are more beneficial to the interactions?

[Guest]

well I see a girl I like it's-
girl, hot girl, get hot girl

push pull is extremely effective. I'm not sure I fully consciously think about it, but I do make a concious effort to do it.

One thing I was discussing with a guy earlier that I like to do is to precondition girls to do things to please me. Example:
A girl gives me something. I love it when people give me things, so I reward her. "Wow you are very generous I love it when you do nice things for me." This preconditions her to feel good when she gives me stuff, and each time she gives me stuff/does stuff for me I concrete this reward by reiterating it because of this sort of frame I was probably one of few guys who actually made money on valentines day instead of lost it.
you can precondition many other things in this sort of way too, just give it a try and you will begin to see the power in it.

Other frames I focus on: coming from a mindset of genuineness and not coolness. As coolness can be easily faked therefore doesn't hold as much value as genuiness which is very hard to fake. Alot of guys frame is I am the coolest person ever/whatever, but by doing this they are still playing into a girls frame, they are still trying to be something maybe even something outside of themselves in order to impress her and win over her affections. When instead being genuinetrying to make it look as if you have no faults is unneccessary and would actually be disgenuine. You are showing people that yes, you do have faults and shit wrong, but that you are comfortable with even these things. That is true coolness.

[Guest]

I agree with the frames you have thrown out there Zine. I like rewarding women for good behavior. :)

[url]http://the-red-mole.blogspot.com/2008/03/shaft-and-subpersonalities.html[/url]

Subpersonalities- By Shaft via El Topo

Hello! I go by Shaft.

El Topo has asked me to write something on ?frames,? since we have had countless interesting discussions on the topic.
Writing is a lot harder than yapping, I?ve discovered.

My first attempt was a blurb on what is a frame, but that was probably too simple for you guys, and no matter how I rearranged it, it seemed kind of lame.
So I?ll write about something else that I think is a really helpful phenomenon that ties in really nicely with frames.

Let?s say you?re in a bar with a big crowd and dozens of hot girls.
You start talking to one, run your best game, and she?s not buying, for whatever reason.

What are you going to do?

Find another girl who will buy your game.
There?s one out there.
But suppose there aren?t really dozens of girls. Suppose for whatever reason, you like this one, or your buddy likes her friend.

Perhaps there?s a side of her that will buy your game.

Perhaps that side is buried for the moment because she has certain patterns of thought and behaviors whenever she hangs out with her work friends, and different patterns when she hangs out with her school friends, and you found her with her work crowd.

She has at least a couple of distinct subpersonalities, and if you can discover and reach the one that is susceptible to your game, your odds automatically skyrocket any time you walk into a room.

The idea has been around a long time. I really started thinking about subpersonalities when I started trying to break down what I do in my version of stripper game, trying to understand why it works and when it is or is not effective.

I realized that, for practical purposes, it was as if I were interacting with two totally different personalities within the same person.

First the stripper, who is basically not seducible.

Second, the real girl, who may or may not exist, who is seducible.

If you can manage the relationship between the two, you can seduce strippers very consistently.

What do I think is really going on psychologically?

I have no idea, and it probably doesn?t matter.

What does matter is that if you assume there are more than one personality in there, you can sometimes ?flip? between them, and actually change the way a person responds in the real world.

There are tons of examples in real life. I can certainly think of guys who get pretty bold around women once they discover the community?as long as they?re with community guys. But they revert to shyness when they?re back with their old friends, because that?s who they are around those friends. Sure, it?s the same guy, and we can guess all day about what causes this?whether he?s consciously moderating his behavior or whether he has two ?subpersonalities? that manifest.

But the fact is, he will reflexively feel and act differently. And you can use that to get him to behave differently by moving him between different groups of friends. Or by other means.

More examples: The sixth grade misfit who goes to camp and comes out of his shell to moderate popularity, only to return to obscurity in seventh grade. . . Then to move to a different city and become popular in eighth grade. The tough guy at the bar who is henpecked at home. The quiet guy who becomes a belligerent drunk.

To explain why the concept of subpersonalities so neatly dovetails with the idea of frames, I?ll use the analogy of a play. Think of a frame as the stage and set: A simplified model of the part of the world that?s relevant to the play.

When you set a frame, it?s like you?re building the set, placing props, even dressing and positioning the actors. Still, the actor has to have a script and a motivation. The frame is what?s happening. People and personalities are who it?s happening to.
There?s an awesome improv show called ?Who?s line is it anyway.? One type of exercise involves setting up a certain inherently unremarkable situation, then giving the actors various identities and place them in that situation. For example, a dinner party. One guy is a Kung-Fu fighter. Another guy only talks in questions, etc. The comedy comes from the unpredictability, and that comes from the fact that the actors are out of context. That?s an extreme version of what is happening when you set up a frame without figuring out who you?re dealing with. She?s out with her brothers and cousins and you are asking her about her wildest sexual position, or asking if she?d like to kiss you. May work, may not?it?s a gamble. But get her on the other side of the room, find out about her wilder side, talk to that side, then ask the same thing?much more likely. (By the way, remember being told at boot camp to move and isolate?)

Captain Jack does this all the time. He doesn?t use the same terms?he calls what he does framing.
But what he does, and what many people don?t get, is that eliciting sexual and adventurous personas is part and parcel of his own handcrafted framing routines. One way of accessing a subpersonality is by giving permission for that subpersonality to come out. CJ does that with his body language and his routines. Another way is to talk to the subpersonality. That?s a whole topic in itself. But CJ?s own rings-on-fingers routines and strawberry fields routines do both.
Everybody is different, and everybody has different aspects that emerge under various circumstances. Some people really suppress their impulsive side, but have a very accessible sensual side, or a submissive side.

That is why if you just run the same routines, it will work eventually when you find the right girl who is ready to buy your game. But you?re playing a numbers game. If you figure out whom you?re dealing with, bring out one of the more complicit subpersonalities, then run the right kind of game, you have dramatically increased your odds of getting the girl you want. Off the top of my head, a few personas that could be helpful for pickup include:

hypersexual, sensual, adventurous, hedonistic, independent, submissive, dominant, rebellious, anonymous.

You can talk to more than one subpersonality at the same time. This is where it gets interesting. For example, ?It?s 2 o?clock? may mean ?time to sleep? to the ?Den Mother? personality, but nothing at all?or ?time for the afterparty??to the ?party girl? personality. What result you get depends on the relative strength of each subpersonality at the moment.

What if you say something that has meaning to both personalities, like ?I?m going to take you home and fuck you? for example. You will get a response from each subpersonality relative to how strongly that subpersonality is present. Hopefully you?ll have reduced the ?Den Mother? persona into the background, and increased the ?party girl? persona in the foreground. What if that?s not possible, if she?s getting all kinds of stimuli from her friends that keep ?Den mother? in the foreground as you cultivate ?party girl??

She?ll have two reactions:

1) I want to fuck him, and

2) that would make me a slut.

The ultimate mental computation reduces to ?I am a bad person?, which conflicts (I hope) with her basic core beliefs. The term for that is ?cognitive dissonance? and comes along with an awful psychic feeling akin to being kicked in the gut. Therefore, the state is usually quickly resolved quickly suppressing one of the responding subpersonalities. That?s basically what is going on when you get an anti-slut defense.
However, there are some effective techniques that you can use. You can anchor your tone and pacing to different personalities. For example, one thing I do all the time is to anchor ?social girl??the girl I first met out with her friends?to a normal tone and pacing.

Then, I?ll anchor (for example) submissive girl to a slower pacing and lower tone.

Now, I can talk to each subpersonality just by changing my tonality and pacing. I can say, ?You little whore? in a slow, low voice and sensual girl hears it, and social girl does not freak out. I can say,
?Nothing is gonna happen. I have to get up early tomorrow.?
In a normal tone, and social girl is happy, and submissive girl ignores. Try accidentally saying that in a low tone, and guess what? Submissive girl starts to give up and fade into the background. What machinery is at work here? Who knows? Again, all I can say is that by pretending there really are two people in there, you really can observe that behavior.
This is starting to get lengthy, but that?s basically the overview. One more thing: This all happens as you build comfort. The process of discovering and accessing subpersonalities should be very normal and conversational. There are no weird rigid routines, no creepy embedded suggestions or crotch pointing. This is not about convincing or coercion. It is about liberating, about finding thrilling aspect of a girl, and letting her feel free to express it, giving her permission to do what she wants. Somewhere inside, like little seed, every girl has a way of giving herself permission to let go. You need to find that seed, and water it until it grows into a plant. . .

[Guest]

Hey Guys,
I've heard guys talk about framing. I'm not sure what it is or how to do it. Can anyone explain it?

[Guest]

Framing is a term coined in NLP. A frame can refer to a belief, what limits our view of the world. If we let this limiting belief go, new conceptions and interpretation possibilities can develop.

Another meaning or another sense is assigned by reframing a situation or context, thus sees a situation in another frame.

I like to consider frames as being your point of view of the world that surrounds you. For example: When you approach a girl, you may want your frame to be something like: "This girl looks cool, and I'd like to be friends with her." You want her to get that vibe off of you right? If your frame is "I haven't been laid in two weeks, I'd like to bone her" she is going to see that and respond appropriately.

The process of reframing occurs when the HB tries to "steal" your frame (along with your control over the social interaction) by impeding her frame into the interaction.

An example of this that I used to use quite often is when an HB called me out in some way shortly after the approach for hitting on her:

ME: I come in with an opener with the frame that she looks like a fun person and I would like to make some new friends since I'm new in town. (This is a very good, subtle DHV because you are being very sociable and have no fear of meeting new people, even HB's...)
HER: "I have a boyfriend." (She is calling you out for hitting on her with this shit test.)
ME: "Damn, I'm not trying to hit on you, I'm just trying to have a decent conversation!"
HER: "Oh, sorry about that..."

What this does is it reverses her frame that she is trying to impose on the interaction. She is trying to label you as the socially awkward one of the situation for hitting on her. When you do a reversal on her frame, however, she turns into the socially awkward one. Her friends will look at her funny and I've even had one friend call her out for being rude to this nice, fun stranger. Turns into a big DHV for you also.

In conclusion, frames are just a point of view. Everyone uses frames, just some more consciously than others.

Hope this helps,
Gamble